See your learning you just made me look like the asshole
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Burger Tuning Oil Catch Can Long Term Review
- Thread starter matreyia
- Start date
Regarding the results from a "blow test" vs vacuum operation - I "applied vacuum" on it too with the same results while horizontal. I'm sure you can understand why a grown man might not want to post "I blew on and sucked on Rob's valve to disappointing results" online, right? Lol.
Of course a person won't produce the same exact situations as an engine would, I won't argue that. But airflow is airflow, and if we are only going to judge products based on how they work on our specific engines then all the flowbench results should be considered moot too. Which they aren't for obvious reasons. Because airflow is airflow.
If you'd like, I can hook it up to a vacuum cleaner or some shit and show it still leaking. I just can't help but think that if Toyota specifically designed the valve to be run vertically while holding high pressures, that it might have a detrimental effect running how we run them.
I get what you're saying about how PCV valves close in all sorts of orientations because a PCV valve is a PCV valve but I think you're oversimplifying and overlooking certain things. We could say a Turbo will make boost no matter where or how it's mounted, but if we somehow fab up and mount a single RB Super Evo 2 Turbo on a top mount kit and try to run it at 30psi, it's not gonna work quite right as it?
Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
Let's recap things in an extremely simple form for you:
1) If one were to inject airflow (pressure) into the nipple side of the valve, it will seal shut. This is also known as the system operating in high load.
2) If one were to extract airflow (vacuum) from the nipple side of the valve, it will open and by the definition of some "leak". This is also known as the system operating in low load.
Both are normal conditions that will follow suit regardless if the valve is vertical, horizontal, diagonal, or upside down.
Thanks,
Rob
Alright, since it's clear you *really* can't handle the idea of even possibly, maybe, sorta being wrong (and hey Robby, it's not just you - it'd be products BMS, VTT and others have, too!) without taking digs at someone let me recap things in an extremely simple form for you:
1) Injecting airflow (pressure) into the nipple side of the valve while horizontal, it does not always fully seal shut. This is how the N54's system operates in high load.
2) Extracting airflow (vacuum) from the nipple side of the valve, it does open, just like it should. This is not the definition of "leak" as anyone in this thread is using it, but you're already aware of that and just playing dumb so you can be a dickhead to someone not drinking the kool-aid. This is how the N54 system operates in low load, and the latter is how Rob Beck operates with high blood pressure.
3) While vertical, the valve operates properly both with vacuum *and* pressure.
Tell me Robby, when you initially tested your PCV valve on a flowbench and saw how much better it worked than the stock one, was your valve vertical or horizontal? I don't expect you'll actually answer this since we all know how most flow benches are set up and it would take some modicum of backing up what you say, but I look forward to your half-baked, self-aggrandizing response to me instead
. I guess if that old post was "just Tony being Tony" by testing things and pointing out the flaws without worrying about someone's feelings for better or worse, then this post was just Rob being Rob by ignoring evidence, resorting to shin-kicking, and refusing to move beyond the past.What I do expect is that the reason the VTT guys decided to go with an external check valve is because they found it sealed in the PCV system better. @Chris@VargasTurboTech, I don't mean to drag you into anything involving Rob that might be deemed by him as competing (despite him already dissing you in this thread), but can you at least confirm for us if your external check valve will hold it's seal better than the Toyota valve option every vendor offers? I do suppose there's still a chance my PCV valve went bad after 500 miles (which doesn't bode well for it anyway) but I'd still venture to say something else is going on.
Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
Alright, since it's clear you *really* can't handle the idea of even possibly, maybe, sorta being wrong (and hey Robby, it's not just you - it'd be products BMS, VTT and others have, too!) without taking digs at someone let me recap things in an extremely simple form for you:
1) Injecting airflow (pressure) into the nipple side of the valve while horizontal, it does not always fully seal shut. This is how the N54's system operates in high load.
2) Extracting airflow (vacuum) from the nipple side of the valve, it does open, just like it should. This is not the definition of "leak" as anyone in this thread is using it, but you're already aware of that and just playing dumb so you can be a dickhead to someone not drinking the kool-aid. This is how the N54 system operates in low load, and the latter is how Rob Beck operates with high blood pressure.
3) While vertical, the valve operates properly both with vacuum *and* pressure.
Tell me Robby, when you initially tested your PCV valve on a flowbench and saw how much better it worked than the stock one, was your valve vertical or horizontal? I don't expect you'll actually answer this since we all know how most flow benches are set up and it would take some modicum of backing up what you say, but I look forward to your half-baked, self-aggrandizing response to me instead
What I do expect is that the reason the VTT guys decided to go with an external check valve is because they found it sealed in the PCV system better. @Chris@VargasTurboTech, I don't mean to drag you into anything involving Rob that might be deemed by him as competing (despite him already dissing you in this thread), but can you at least confirm for us if your external check valve will hold it's seal better than the Toyota valve option every vendor offers? I do suppose there's still a chance my PCV valve went bad after 500 miles (which doesn't bode well for it anyway) but I'd still venture to say something else is going on.
Cool story bro.
Rob
Thanks for proving my point again
It's really a shame you have to take any questions or requests for evidence as personal attacks. Tbh at this point I suspect you already knew the valves don't work properly as-is but probably think there's no better solution so "good enough's good enough" - which is a shame considering you've always been the man when it comes to the N54 PCV system. But alas, just like with turbos other companies are willing to push the envelope and continue testing the waters whereas you like to sit on the side of the pool. Really bums me out cause I was a fan of yours for a long time and you're much closer in proximity to me than the other companies.----------------
For the rest of the thread: I'll probably be ordering one of the VTT inline check valves, and/or possibly order a pcv delete fitting this Friday so I can run one of the supra valves in the line where it can hopefully seal properly.
I'll obviously do a bit of testing before installing anything and if the VTT route isn't any better sell that, otherwise I might have an RB external fitting up for grabs. There has to be a way to make a difference with valve buildup - Im sure it isn't possible to entirely eliminate the need for walnuts but if having the RB kit doesn't even extend the 30k interval then something has to.
I think you should because your test is less than confidence building.
I just grabbed one off the bench and did the suck and blow in all orientations and it seems to be working correctly. Certainly less pressure or more depending on the orientation before it seals shut comepletely, but if that is your argument then we got to get to specific PSI results and see if it has a material affect.
Perhaps you simply have some contamination affecting the seal or some other defect.
Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
It is beyond the point of just not wasting ones breath- this guy was dropped on his head well too many times as a child.
Will be adding him to the SpoolStreet Twit Ignore list as soon as the opportunity arises.Rob
Our external system was devised to overcome the issues inherent in the whole stock setup, and allow for maximum flexibility. It wasn't driven by a need to better the sealing of that particular valve, but rather allow for systems that can grow/change with your needs as mileage and/or power increases, particularly as the aluminum valve covers came out -good time to do it all. FWIW I haven't seen the leaking issues you're talking about on the standard PCV upgrade.
I hate being nervous to ask questions for fear of starting shit but I really have to ask. Rob has stated in past that a check valve is a no go cause you lose the metered orifice was this accounted for with the vtt kit or is this not an issue and one has no affect on other im not sure if your kit involves removing flapper or if your check valve affects its function at all thanks in advance
Ps now that's a run on sentence a five yr old can comprehend im awesome at bad grammar
Ps now that's a run on sentence a five yr old can comprehend im awesome at bad grammar
I didn't end up using a vacuum cleaner, but I did use my compressor to the same results.
As I even said in multiple posts - Im aware I could have a lemon, or that something happened to it in the 500 miles of use it had somehow despite my external setup not catching anything concerning. But Rob ignored all that and went right for the personal insults because one of the options was "there's something better out there than what we were told is best", so I got suspicious and my post was made.
I think you're confusing the sides of the system. The VTT kit can retain the flapper and still use a check valve. For their products the external lowside setup is:I hate being nervous to ask questions for fear of starting shit but I really have to ask. Rob has stated in past that a check valve is a no go cause you lose the metered orifice was this accounted for with the vtt kit or is this not an issue and one has no affect on other im not sure if your kit involves removing flapper or if your check valve affects its function at all thanks in advance
Ps now that's a run on sentence a five yr old can comprehend im awesome at bad grammar
PCV "Delete" plug (male) > check valve > throttle body attachment
For Rob's it's:
Pcv "Delete" plug (female) with a PCV valve attached > throttle body attachment
In VTTs, the check valve functions as the PCV valve. The metered flow that can be ruined by replacing something with a check valve is on the high side, more specifically the flapper.
I'm def confused cause I was thinking they had no effect but asked to make sure then rob disagreed with your post
Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
We have been selling these valves for about 6 years, easily to the tune of around 5,000 valves. Suffice to say we have handled many of them over the years, and we are sure our competitors who use the same valve can say the same. And while we recommend they be swapped every 50k miles, this is only for preventative maintenance purposes and it's likely they could last more than double of that. The quality of these valves is second to none, thanks to Toyota.
As you are making some assertions that others do not even agree with (even our competitors), it may behoove everyone to show what YOU are doing to get your results. We tend to think your compressor arrangement could be perhaps a cigarette lighter 12v bike pump, or something really low volume airflow? Ultimately and FWIW we have never in all of our years found one of these that just wouldn't seal (regardless of position) with any sort of real life airflow put onto the valve, even with the good ole fashioned "quick to perform" lung compressor test.
PS. Before you start giving tech advice it would help to really understand what is going on, and rest assured you are not quite there yet.
Rob
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Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
I hate being nervous to ask questions for fear of starting shit but I really have to ask. Rob has stated in past that a check valve is a no go cause you lose the metered orifice was this accounted for with the vtt kit or is this not an issue and one has no affect on other im not sure if your kit involves removing flapper or if your check valve affects its function at all thanks in advance
Ps now that's a run on sentence a five yr old can comprehend im awesome at bad grammar
What we had said is that a check valve is not a PCV valve. A check valve is full open once open, unlike a PCV Valve which varies flow based on vacuum level input. Otherwise it is sealed under any positive pressure, exactly like a PCV valve. So the PCV valve itself is a bit more complex.
In our opinion, which seems to differ from our competitors in some scenarios, is that a full open check valve would apply large (unnecessary) amounts of vacuum to crankcase with the flapper intact, especially the higher the engine vacuum becomes (ie. idle, decel, etc).
This would likely lead to some noises from full manifold vacuum being pulled out of the crankcase, which would lead to a rather large and unnecessary vacuum leak. Then with the flapper removed it would become an even larger vacuum leak and a lot of volume being moved through the crankcase, but literally no vacuum in the crankcase to show for it.
We are open to some further discussion but on the surface are not seeing how the check valve could be utilized in itself to accomplish anything meaningful. Now if the check valve was utilized inline with the PCV (ie. for those who may be "fearful" of the PCV leaking) we do not see the harm as long as the check valve itself doesn't defect. Once again as the PCV is it's own check valve and metering orifice, it really seems to be the win win and simple means to an end of solutions.
More information about PCV functions can be reviewed here:
https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/rb-external-pcv-help.3893/#post-53911
Thanks,
Rob
I hate being nervous to ask questions for fear of starting shit but I really have to ask. Rob has stated in past that a check valve is a no go cause you lose the metered orifice was this accounted for with the vtt kit or is this not an issue and one has no affect on other im not sure if your kit involves removing flapper or if your check valve affects its function at all thanks in advance
Ps now that's a run on sentence a five yr old can comprehend im awesome at bad grammar
We have many options depending on your preferences and needs. Shoot me an email and I'll send you several diagrams for most common options, but the beauty of a modular system is that you can mix/match/make it what you want. The down side is that it tends to take a little more knowledge from the user (unless you just go with one of the pre-sorted kits).
Wait, sorry, let me try that again, run-on-sentence style:
We have many options depending on your preferences and needs but if you shoot me an email I'll send you several diagrams for most common options and you'll begin to understand the beauty of a modular system is that you can mix/match/make it what you want but must keep in mind that the down side is that it tends to take a little more knowledge from the user (unless you just go with one of the pre-sorted kits). *breath*
Chris
I think he mostly marked it disagree because I marked his insult as dumb, but hey I'm open to the idea of being wrong and he certainly knows more about the pcv system than I do.
Rob, as I've said several times now, I was aware that my spare valve might've been malfunctioning. I saw an issue and decided to look into possible reasons why, especially since we were talking about carbon buildup still happening.
Personally, I think it's better when someone does some self research into options of why. I posted and no one had an answer so I posted my thoughts on the possibilities, and once again you show you can't handle even the possibility of a criticism, even if it would've been constructive for all involved. I don't know why it always needs to be personal for you and I'm not sure who "we" is that you keep referring to, but *I* know you realize by now that I wouldn't be using a bicycle pump anymore than you would be using a sawzall to machine your turbos. Again I don't understand your constant childish need to insult others but hey, if that's what gets you up in the morning then keep it up my friend.
Hopefully aside from your unnecessary disdain for me you're willing to discuss this with me - I have no desire to eliminate the pcv system (or the flapper), but how do you define "too much" vacuum? Do you think running a check valve would cause the dreaded seal howling, or just more than optimal vacuum?
And out of curiosity have you experimented with running a check valve in-line with a PCV valve? As I said I know you don't think extending the need for walnut blasting further is possible compared to what your current setup option is but I think some of us would sacrifice simplicity if it did push it back further.
Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
All of that and you still have not proven your valve is even leaking, you made the accusation so where is the evidence? (That burden is on you, remember?) OR perhaps you just finally figured out that it actually is functional, as we 100% suspect that it is and has been, but do not want to admit it.
Meanwhile here you are relying on RB for free engine system tutorials everyday while simultaneously tossing forth your undermining forum twit attitude? Remember you are the one asking questions here, not us.
Meanwhile here you are relying on RB for free engine system tutorials everyday while simultaneously tossing forth your undermining forum twit attitude? Remember you are the one asking questions here, not us.
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...saying my spare valve is leaking is accusing you of something? Jesus Christ man, lmao.
I was trying to peacefully move on and ask if you've experimented with those other setups you mentioned. That's not an accusation either, it was genuine curiosity since you're apparently the N54 PCV guru. That does not mean I currently do, or ever have, relied on you for how an engine works. My knowledge of PCV systems - let alone engines - does not start and end with the N54.
If you'd rather continue your childish games than answer any questions that you sparked, then be my guest. I have nothing to sell to this platform, so someone thinking I'm an asshole for asking questions about products or responding to their "designers" does nothing to me. The same cannot be said when you're the Dave Mustaine of the N54 world. Look at these forums - I've questioned and had discussions with several other vendors, but they prefer to work with their customers instead of flop out their average-sized pecker and wag it at anyone asking for an answer to something like you do. Then again, I guess you're just waving that Missouri flag, eh?
Rob@RBTurbo
Lieutenant
Poof.
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