Collecting Data On N54 Twin Turbo Mileage and Reliability

[Rob@RBTurbo]

On another forum we posted a thread just under a year ago literally documenting the amount of turbos shipped vs. complaints on the couple years prior (basically covering longterm statistics of our latest portfolio) and the problems were next to nil. Since then we have been updating that thread monthly with all complaints (very easy to do when there are next to no complaints) of that same portfolio with of course simultaneous customer base expansion via non-stop continual orders. Results are still impeccable and next month we will likely bring that thread over to SS as well. Some may wish to call BS on that thread (which I feel is akin a pat on the back really)- but find another vendor who has done such a thing? In this day and age doing such a thing while fudging numbers and/or hidings failures would be quite telling.

Ten years straight focus on building N54 turbos (about 98% of our turbo building efforts) and our servicing side is running an extremely clear pathway, there is MUCH to be said for that. However this doesnt mean everything has always been this great and there certainly have been some hiccups along the way- these are things that do and can happen in this business and they can haunt you for an eternity it seems. Regardless getting past them and growing the product is what makes the biggest differences, ultimately we all just want to provide great products and not hear anything ever again (unless it is good news!).

Rob

 

[Xm-n54]

Scientifically I would say it is highly misleading. Let's ignore the ton of different variables and look for a relationship to mileage because that's easy to measure. Don't mean this in any offensive way. It's pretty basic testing - if there are a ton of variables that go into cause, measuring one variable and coming to conclusions is as good as guessing. Actually guessing may be better.

Filippo

I appreciate your feedback. There are different variables at play but all manufacturers are subject to those different variables. And, if the data shows that across the board(different variables at play for all) a certain manufacturer has significantly less mileage than another, I will say they are inferior to the other.

 

[SlowE93]

I would think it would be best to ask
1. Who is running 500 /600 whp ? What turbos ? How long ? What issues if any.
Same questions for
2. 600 / 700 whp
3. 700 / 800 whp
I feel this would be better suited to see longevity, issues, power level / boost for given turbo, etc.

 

[Boorda]

I think this is a neat idea, but too sophisticated for simply logging in data and making charts.
Would be extremely hard to gather all of the variables, but....
this may be a good project for AI/Machine learning to try and learn/assume results.

Again, this would be highly subjective and accuracy would be questionable, but a fun project none-the-less.

 

[Torgus]

Or just buy from the people who you hear have less failures aka pure or rb. Neither have gone the route of Chinese castings and wheels etc. Which all seem to have multiple failures be it VTT MMP Frankenturbo etc. You might as well roll the dice on 1k Alibaba turbos.

Unfortunately you will never ever capture the people who do not post on forums or on Facebook etc. Who read online, have a failure, and say fuck it. The N54 is not cheap past stock levels.

 

[Asbjorn]

Or just buy from the people who you hear have less failures aka pure or rb. Neither have gone the route of Chinese castings and wheels etc. Which all seem to have multiple failures be it VTT MMP Frankenturbo etc. You might as well roll the dice on 1k Alibaba turbos.

Unfortunately you will never ever capture the people who do not post on forums or on Facebook etc. Who read online, have a failure, and say fuck it. The N54 is not cheap past stock levels.

For what it is worth VTT moved away from Chinese wheels. Not sure about the others.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

For what it is worth VTT moved away from Chinese wheels. Not sure about the others.

Do you work for their procurement team? Chances are they are using the same suppliers as they always have (and also potentially the same as the rest of us), but as their stuff keeps obliterating they are kicking and screaming for new materials hoping that fixes their seemingly ongoing issues.

Rob

 

[Asbjorn]

Do you work for their procurement team? Chances are they are using the same suppliers as they always have (and also potentially the same as the rest of us), but as their stuff keeps obliterating they are kicking and screaming for new materials hoping that fixes their seemingly ongoing issues.

Rob

I just checked, and realize they never said anything about where the new wheels are manufactured. All we know is that they changed supplier. It could be that it is just another chinese one. My bad.

https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/all-vtt-v2-gc-turbos-move-to-mar-m246-turbine-wheels.4418/

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Or just buy from the people who you hear have less failures aka pure or rb. Neither have gone the route of Chinese castings and wheels etc.

If you take a look at some of the new offerings available from your besties list you'll find that some of them have gone the Chinese casting direction -which makes sense, since there is a useful entry level product application. It's not a slight -we thought it was a good idea back when we changed the entry level stuff over, and it still is today, just correcting the accidental oversight on your part.

Do you work for their procurement team? Chances are they are using the same suppliers as they always have (and also potentially the same as the rest of us), but as their stuff keeps obliterating they are kicking and screaming for new materials hoping that fixes their seemingly ongoing issues.

Rob

Chances are even better (read that: 100%) that you're incorrect, and we do not use the same supplier we used back when we had the GC V1.0 issue with turbine wheels. Thanks!

Chris

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Just skimmed through this thread.

Real world reliability numbers are difficult, unless you omit end use -then it's easy, they either work perfect forever or they don't, but like so many things out there, how you use the product (in part) determines how long it lasts.

In general with turbos shaft speed is the killer. Sure, you can destroy something in a hurry by surging the snot out of it, but overspin them and they all die. In fact, in aerospace, running a turbine engine in "essential mode" means you can burn that mofo to the ground before it shuts itself off.... the one safety exception, which is never bypassed, is max RPM. I.e. shaft speed. Overspeed is always the party ender.

We are, as far as we know, the only manufacturer that went through the trouble of monitoring shaft speed. We learned just how fast those little turbines are spinning at what boost level, but even this is for nothing if someone has a boost leak. People get the benefit of this data when they interact with me with respect to what turbo for what application, power, fuel, and reliability end goals.

At the end of the day the best thing you can do to ensure that your turbos live a good long life is sit down, ignore the dyno queen crowd, and be honest about what you really want to do with the car. How will you really drive it? We can help you come up with a list of attributes, power goals and reliability among them, then select a turbo that suits your needs best. Proper installation will always be important. I cannot overstate the importance of a boost leak verification, done correctly. When it comes to sizing turbos wringing the piss out of the smaller turbo (which is often less expensive) can pay dividends in drivability (fun!) but you're going to lose some on the reliability end via our old friend shaft speed. Again, it's about what you want from your car. More isn't better, better is better.

For us, generally speaking, we see the best reliability out of customers that are well informed and fully engage with us prior to pulling the trigger and throwing together a bunch of parts to make power. We can help you make sure you're not missing anything with mods/goals/etc. I do this every day, so if you're wondering how it goes down, just shoot me an email and we can start the process. I'm always glad to help.

Chris

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

If you take a look at some of the new offerings available from your besties list you'll find that some of them have gone the Chinese casting direction -which makes sense, since there is a useful entry level product application. It's not a slight -we thought it was a good idea back when we changed the entry level stuff over, and it still is today, just correcting the accidental oversight on your part.

It is true it seems all (aside RB) use these OE replacement Chinaframes now. It is hard to pass up competitively; ultra cheap and wastegates all done and product already cleaned ready to rock (sans machining as applicable). Plus a vendor can advertise "all new, no core charge required, etc."- an enticing marketing campaign to the none-the-wiser consumer.

Certainly not up to the same quality as OEM Turbofolds (manifold and turbine housing), and as such seems like quite a bit of corner cutting IMO when everything from wastegates onwards can be done better by making ones own parts and selectively using parts from the OE cores as a foundation for the builds. I do not see us ever moving over to that particular OE Chinaframe product when there is a better option with the OE Boysen/MHI combo, even if it does mean a bit more efforts on our behalf.

Chances are even better (read that: 100%) that you're incorrect, and we do not use the same supplier we used back when we had the GC V1.0 issue with turbine wheels. Thanks!

Chris

We have used your GC Lite 1.0 TD04L-9 Blade turbines in the forms of the Inconel (AND the later mar-m); from that same "old" supplier. We also order from the other you are currently, usually in inconel- this particular casting mold is available from either supplier (100% identical). All said we have not seen any issues with any of these TD04L-9 blades regardless of the iteration, material, supplier, etc; and this is well over 2 years of usage at this point.

For the record they are all still coming from the Asia's; although this is not atypical in the entire turbo industry. IMO quality and reliability has most to do with the actual turbo build from machining to balancing to assembly to internals utilized. We all know we are selling to "performance" crowds who are going to "send it" on the regular regardless of what you try to mandate... yet I'd agree that education is certainly important to try to keep the masses grounded a bit. However when said and done if statistically you are continually sending out product and not getting anything back then overall something must be being done very correctly on the manufacturing side.

Rob

 

[fmorelli]

For the record they are all still coming from the Asia's ...

I think this is a bit of a misnomer. In the same broad brush strokes, there are plenty of extremely high-quality products coming out of Taiwan in Japan, for instance.

Filippo

 

[EthanolTurbo]

Or just buy from the people who you hear have less failures aka pure or rb. Neither have gone the route of Chinese castings and wheels etc. Which all seem to have multiple failures be it VTT MMP Frankenturbo etc. You might as well roll the dice on 1k Alibaba turbos.

Unfortunately you will never ever capture the people who do not post on forums or on Facebook etc. Who read online, have a failure, and say fuck it. The N54 is not cheap past stock levels.

Pure has cast turbos now for $2200. Same as their normal stage 2 but Chinesium.

 

[Torgus]

It would be interesting if the turbo vendors made a thread and listed their products and the HP one can expect on 93 and 100% e85 on a FBO+. Like real numbers no built motor, no cams, no intake manifold, etc. What the average consumer can expect at the wheels, at shaft speeds that make sense for longevity and productivity aka powah.

None of this email me and we can discuss. It is not rocket science, very few variables. Make the info public. Again no one seems to touch vendor dynos. Not the MMP bullshit of 400 to 1000 HP turbos.

I feel like vendor glory pull dynos do not show what the average person can make. It is clear I do not like VTT but with all the GCs sold has anyone come close to 570whp dyno on 93 for instance? And MMP close to 1k whp? Or even 800? It seems no one shows dynos that are not positive but as most of the states do not have e85 access I am surprised there are not more 93 octane dynos shared on any of the twins or singles.

It would be even better I'd they would rate their turbos in lbs/min or had compressor maps like most main stream turbos so people could make educated decisions.

Pure has cast turbos now for $2200. Same as their normal stage 2 but Chinesium.

Got a link I do not see them on the website? That is cheap and pure is known for quality. I assume the frankenturbo style? Not the VTT rebranded zage?

 

[langsbr]

Unfortunately you will never ever capture the people who do not post on forums or on Facebook etc.

Or they are that mysterious group of RB fans that have never heard of the internet, and thus never post any info or results about them, despite claims of 100+ sets sold last year.

(Insert Rob's link of a 5+ year old example that went 10s). Wait, he dumped the RBs and went single shortly afterwards.

Got a link I do not see them on the website?

The was info on a different forum a few years back that they were the frankenturbo style, but nothing recent. One of the guys at Pure was saying they were selling new casting turbos on FB the other day, but no details.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Got a link I do not see them on the website? That is cheap and pure is known for quality.