Compound meth pumps

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Bmwfixerguy1

Lieutenant
Jun 5, 2017
810
So there are a few of us that kinda chat amongst ourselves when it comes to out meth addiction..

So still working on my DP system and the thought crossed my mind. Has anyone ever ran a dual compound pump system.

We raise low pressure to increase and stabilize the high pressure on out DI... So has anyone ever fed another pump with say 60 psi and higher volume like a 3/8 line.. could really help with atomization I would think flowing 200 (hypothetical) psi to say a 160cc direct port nozzle as well as increase it to a larger cc rating..

Just a thought nothing I plan to do...
 
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Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,371
Boston
I like and have used meth, it is wonderful. Nazi dope FTW. Can't ever forget that taste. While I have never run very high PSI meth here are my thoughts:

Fluid is not compressible(with what we are talking about) so you need a lot of force to generate high pressures. The higher the pressure, the greater chance of a leak and more strain on everything in the system(in theory).

There is no low pressure high pressure meth pump here. We are not going from 82psi LP to 3200 psi HP. I think what you want already exists on the market. An adjustable meth pump. As long as the meth is fully atomizing I don't see how 2x the PSI will help much as long as you have sized your nozzles correctly to your CC flow goal after compensating for peak boost. They make much higher PSI meth pumps than 160psi mind you. I would check before running 1000psi with whatever FAV, flow sensors, etc. you use.


http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-582-replacement-160psi-water-pump-for-hfs-2-3-4-6/ <--I run aquamist so it is what I am familiar with but I am sure there are other pumps that are similar. The pump can be adjusted to over 280 psi. 3000CC/min pump.

Power obeys the I/square law. If the bypass pressure is increased from 160psi to 250psi, the average current draw will increase from 7A to 11A. Power dissipation will be more than doubled. Using the I^2 R formula, the power will effectively increase from 49W to 121W under the same load (R). Power increase is proportional to operation temperature rise, the pump will run much hotter. Aquatec (manufacturer) advise against pressure over 180psi for long term reliability.



No one is running 90psi on an n54 and needs to compensate for it. Most are 20-30psi.

jetrate-nc-bg4.gif


Selecting the correct jet or jets for the required flow:
  • Calculate the "true" pressure by subtract the 160psi pump pressure by the "boost" pressure
  • Select the jet or jets from "true" pressure from the chart below (compensated).
  • Always pick the next size up or allow 10-15% more to allow more headroom.

For longevity they want the pumps to run under 180 psi. Dead head pressure vs. real life are different. So I agree and assume a 150psi - boost for an ideal nozzle. 20psi would be the 130 psi line. That is how I size my nozzles. If anyone has better logic let me know. You can always just flow your system and see what it really makes per min per nozzle.

http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-401-twin-fav-direct-port-bundle-option/ <-- Just run a twin tank twin pumps if you need more flow and match your PSI exactly with the adjustable pump. Twin FAvs to your distro block. Run two 1500CC or 3000cc AM pumps at whatever PSI you want. Should be more than enough meth flow for an n54 and let you play around all you want with high PSI injection and have all the headroom you want.

100% methanol: 20-25% methanol/fuel ratio or 1.5-2cc per BHP. 600whp would be say ~700 BHP so aquamist says I should be running 1050cc - 1400cc of meth + 93 octane. I run roughly a 1000-1100CC in my CP with two nozzles last I checked and did the math. I should probably switch to direct port at some time but I think I am done with spending money on this platform. Once you go above 600whp you will need the larger 3000cc pump or two 1500cc pumps. Personally the single larger 3000cc pump probably makes the most sense.

I also do not see the need for a 3/8 line for meth. That is pretty large. Roughly 2x the size I would think you would need. You would have to step it down anyways at your flow sensor and FAV most likely unless there are some that accept a 3/8 line.

If you are running 160cc x 6 plus 320cc x1 in your CP before the TMAP that puts you at ~1320cc of meth flow. What whp are you aiming for? 1320 is basically at the max for a 1500cc pump. If you need more flow you need a larger pump or more of them. You are really going to want to flow test your system and measure each nozzle to make sure your pump is healthy and everything is flowing the exact identical correct amount before installing into your manifold for DP. DP is not nearly as forgiving as CP meth. Just run the pump for a min and make a quick test rig for the 6 nozzles. Last thing you want is an issue with your DP meth set up.

Does this make sense? Always happy to have a discussion about meth.
 
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Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
Torgus nailed it. Meth pumps are kinda special. The pressures they produce at the flow rates they produce and compatible with meth and run on a 12v electrical system is tuff. I personally ran approx 1400cc of pure meth on 92 octane and easily obtained 630hp on 26psi (gc turbos) I had a gauge installed in the line an my prometh stage 2 pump easily help the 195 psi i set it to. These pumps have a built in bypass that maxes around 220-230. My guess is anything more and you probably gonna need something mechanical. I think your theory is a good one. doubling the pressure should then allow you to drop nozzle size about 25% to acheave the same total volume. And give you great atomization but would the car run any better? I doubt it but untill its tested, who knows.
 
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Bmwfixerguy1

Lieutenant
Jun 5, 2017
810
Good info guys! Yea it was all just a thought and nothing I plan on doing but who knows if we were to hard line plumb everything from pump to nozzle and be able to throw 400-500 psi at a nozzle I wonder what would happen. You figure the world switches over to DI for a reason.. would the same apply for methanol?? Who knows but it would be cool to find out someday đŸ˜‰

Just to be clear when I said use the 3/8 line I meant for the first pump. Let that be a pressurized volume pump feeding the second pump.

Let put it this way it would be cool to build for a 500 psi set up and even if you only threw 180 at it man would that be a bomb proof system đŸ˜‚

I've been toying with meth for about 3 years now and I k.ow just as well as you guys the biggest issues are always leaks bottom line. My cousin is a plumber and built a full metal and union system for his S4 and he couldn't understand why I dealt with leaks LMAO. He said he's never seen a leak not once .. it's always been in the back of my head to just bend metal line from pump/trunk to nozzle

Maybe one day..
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,371
Boston
doubling the pressure should then allow you to drop nozzle size about 25% to acheave the same total volume. And give you great atomization but would the car run any better? I doubt it but untill its tested, who knows.

You can see in this chart that increased pressure means increased flow:
jetrate-nc-bg4-gif.gif


Devil's own chart:

flowchart-gif.gif


More PSI helps but it not needed unless you are trying to avoid running more nozzles. After 2-3 in your CP you should probably switch to DP anyways as you are flowing a good deal of meth most likely. I can't see an advantage in running smaller nozzles.

Here is any easy chart for approximately much to inject:
nozzle%20chart.jpg



If anyone wants to run a fuck ton of meth this seems to be the bee knees of meth pumps: https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html or https://www.miltonroy.com/applications/high-pressure-methanol-chemical-injection-applications/



Good info guys! Yea it was all just a thought and nothing I plan on doing but who knows if we were to hard line plumb everything from pump to nozzle and be able to throw 400-500 psi at a nozzle I wonder what would happen. You figure the world switches over to DI for a reason.. would the same apply for methanol?? Who knows but it would be cool to find out someday đŸ˜‰

Just to be clear when I said use the 3/8 line I meant for the first pump. Let that be a pressurized volume pump feeding the second pump.

Let put it this way it would be cool to build for a 500 psi set up and even if you only threw 180 at it man would that be a bomb proof system đŸ˜‚

I've been toying with meth for about 3 years now and I k.ow just as well as you guys the biggest issues are always leaks bottom line. My cousin is a plumber and built a full metal and union system for his S4 and he couldn't understand why I dealt with leaks LMAO. He said he's never seen a leak not once .. it's always been in the back of my head to just bend metal line from pump/trunk to nozzle

Maybe one day..
For watch is it worth I have never had a leak in 4-5 years of meth injection. I use compression fittings everywhere. The nylon line is not going to expand with pressure so I don't see the value in a hard line per se.

Most jets/nozzles I have read atomize well above 50 psi. I really doubt there is any reason/need to go to 500PSI or 1k. The meth dropslets can only get so small at the end of the day and I seriously doubt there is any advantage. If there was you would see people offering high pressure meth systems. Again, I doubt the rest of the components are going to like 4-5x the pressure.
 
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doublespaces

Administrator
Oct 18, 2016
7,909
AZ
Good info guys! Yea it was all just a thought and nothing I plan on doing but who knows if we were to hard line plumb everything from pump to nozzle and be able to throw 400-500 psi at a nozzle I wonder what would happen.
I've proposed a lot of impractical ideas, sometimes fully knowing it is a bad one but the idea can be fun to entertain.

I know this has been done before, but if you want better atomization in case nobody has mentioned it already you may want to look at meth injectors rather than nozzles.
 

Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
You can see in this chart that increased pressure means increased flow:
View attachment 32807

Devil's own chart:

View attachment 32808

More PSI helps but it not needed unless you are trying to avoid running more nozzles. After 2-3 in your CP you should probably switch to DP anyways as you are flowing a good deal of meth most likely. I can't see an advantage in running smaller nozzles.

Here is any easy chart for approximately much to inject:
View attachment 32809


If anyone wants to run a fuck ton of meth this seems to be the bee knees of meth pumps: https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html or https://www.miltonroy.com/applications/high-pressure-methanol-chemical-injection-applications/





For watch is it worth I have never had a leak in 4-5 years of meth injection. I use compression fittings everywhere. The nylon line is not going to expand with pressure so I don't see the value in a hard line per se.

Most jets/nozzles I have read atomize well above 50 psi. I really doubt there is any reason/need to go to 500PSI or 1k. The meth dropslets can only get so small at the end of the day and I seriously doubt there is any advantage. If there was you would see people offering high pressure meth systems. Again, I doubt the rest of the components are going to like 4-5x the pressure.

yes with more pressure you will get more flow. around 25% more for double the pressure. Which is why i said he could reduce nozzle size to acheive the same flow but at twice the pressure. Also lowering the nozzle sive would improve atomization even farther. As i understood his initial hypothosis was about improving atomization not increasing flow.
 

Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
I've proposed a lot of impractical ideas, sometimes fully knowing it is a bad one but the idea can be fun to entertain.

I know this has been done before, but if you want better atomization in case nobody has mentioned it already you may want to look at meth injectors rather than nozzles.
I switched to meth injectors. when it works right, its fantastic. will never look back compaired to a nozzle system. but it has signifiant drawbacks and complexity in my year and half or so of running it. Meth kills injectors, i dont care how much people say the injector is meth compatible. Race teams that run meth exclusivly drain and "pickle" their injection systems with gasoline after an event specifically because of this. If it aint the meth itself its the water that the meth absorbed out of the air causing corossion. Also I ran into an issue where on my daily drive 85 miles through stop and go conditions not using meth of course, my fuel rail would heat up causing the meth to boil. much like vapor lock on old carburated engines. Id have to "prime the rail" every time i wanted to play. I had to install a fuel pressure regulator and return line to combat this. Lastly, most injectors have significant control issues at the high pump pressures of a meth system. Once i installed the fpr and brought pressure down to around 90 psi. The eratic behavior stopped.
 

doublespaces

Administrator
Oct 18, 2016
7,909
AZ
I switched to meth injectors. when it works right, its fantastic. will never look back compaired to a nozzle system. but it has signifiant drawbacks and complexity in my year and half or so of running it. Meth kills injectors, i dont care how much people say the injector is meth compatible. Race teams that run meth exclusivly drain and "pickle" their injection systems with gasoline after an event specifically because of this. If it aint the meth itself its the water that the meth absorbed out of the air causing corossion. Also I ran into an issue where on my daily drive 85 miles through stop and go conditions not using meth of course, my fuel rail would heat up causing the meth to boil. much like vapor lock on old carburated engines. Id have to "prime the rail" every time i wanted to play. I had to install a fuel pressure regulator and return line to combat this. Lastly, most injectors have significant control issues at the high pump pressures of a meth system. Once i installed the fpr and brought pressure down to around 90 psi. The eratic behavior stopped.
This is really good insight. If I ran meth, I'd like to do it with a couple of injectors as well. The thought of methanol dribbling out of what amounts to a garden sprinkler inside my charge pipe wasn't appealing. How many injectors does your system use?

I have rolled my eyes at this very subject, the 'meth compatible' injectors. They get gummed up despite their claims and need maintained regularly as you know and as I've been told numerous times by @V8bait
 

Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
This is really good insight. If I ran meth, I'd like to do it with a couple of injectors as well. The thought of methanol dribbling out of what amounts to a garden sprinkler inside my charge pipe wasn't appealing. How many injectors does your system use?

I have rolled my eyes at this very subject, the 'meth compatible' injectors. They get gummed up despite their claims and need maintained regularly as you know and as I've been told numerous times by @V8bait
I run the cheap sheat metal stock style intake with 6 90lb/hr F.A.S.T. ls3 style injectors currently.
IMG_20191020_141712.jpg
 
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V8bait

Sergeant
Nov 2, 2016
393
Texas
Ran sprint cars on methanol injection. The entire fuel system ran using screen injectors and you'd vary the flow using a fuel pressure dial. It was super simple with the only electronics really being the pumps but the cars only needed to run at WOT, and would usually bog and buck at slower speeds as such. Every race we'd need to completely flush the system and the injectors and screens would be nasty with that blue green gunk. It is what it is with meth, you need to maintain it.

During races the fuel system and intakes would be frosty cold from the meth but if you use it as supplemental heat would definitely be a concern as well, methanol is very volatile and needs to be flowing or I agree vapor lock would be a much higher concern than with gas.
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,371
Boston
What is the advantage of meth injectors over check ball nozzles?

@Tuppidsay I am guessing you had to use the fuel rail for meth with the injectors? Normally it's just a distro block for meth nozzles no rail needed. Is there any way you can space the rail off the manifold using a phenolic spacer or something?

If/when I go DP meth my plan was to use a 8 port distro block. 6 for the manifold runners and then use two very small nozzles in my CP as I already have two bungs at the correct orientation. I would be interested to learn more about meth injectors. I guess I should start googling.
 

Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
What is the advantage of meth injectors over check ball nozzles?

@Tuppidsay I am guessing you had to use the fuel rail for meth with the injectors? Normally it's just a distro block for meth nozzles no rail needed. Is there any way you can space the rail off the manifold using a phenolic spacer or something?

If/when I go DP meth my plan was to use a 8 port distro block. 6 for the manifold runners and then use two very small nozzles in my CP as I already have two bungs at the correct orientation. I would be interested to learn more about meth injectors. I guess I should start googling.
Control and atomization. With nozzles you have on and off. Yes there are some games that can be played with pulsing the pump and/or solenoid. But if u really want fine control, injectors are the way to go. Is it necessary? Eh, probably not. Traditional nozzles work very well, are simple, and easy to maintain.
 

Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
As far as spacers etc, meth has a really low boiling point? Flash point? Vapor point? Can't remember the correct term. But needless to say, 20 miles of stop and go driving makes everything hot regaurdless. Regular gas would vapor lock as well if it wasn't under pressure from the fuel pump. Pressure raises the vapor point preventing that. Which is why we don't hear about it much on cars anymore.
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,371
Boston
Control and atomization. With nozzles you have on and off. Yes there are some games that can be played with pulsing the pump and/or solenoid. But if u really want fine control, injectors are the way to go. Is it necessary? Eh, probably not. Traditional nozzles work very well, are simple, and easy to maintain.
Thanks! That was sort of my initial thought, control. As I only inject at WOT above 16psi I can't see the added value the control aspect I guess.

Looking back would you have still gone with injectors over nozzles? I am having a hard time finding the advantage to be honest.
 

Tuppidsay

Specialist
Aug 3, 2017
90
Seattle, WA
I had prometh's original direct port setup originally. It worked well. The problem I ran into was with gc lites and then full gc's. I couldn't activate and flow meth fast enough. They just spooled too fast, the time between me flooring it and the time the meth kicked in was to long for my taste, causing high fuel trims and drops in timing etc. I'm sure there are other ways around it but the ingector system with jb4 controlling boost and the injectors and pump. That problem was gone. Trims stayed right where I wanted them to be.

Looking back, would I still go injector. Yeah probably cause that's my nature, to make my life complicated. Do I recommend injector style setups to clients.... No, I don't. Nozzle systems work great. Prometh latest port kits is fantastic.
 
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Bmwfixerguy1

Lieutenant
Jun 5, 2017
810
Thanks! That was sort of my initial thought, control. As I only inject at WOT above 16psi I can't see the added value the control aspect I guess.

Looking back would you have still gone with injectors over nozzles? I am having a hard time finding the advantage to be honest.
Oh boy that's me to the T! I am building my system with them aquamist IE nozzles for the VW port injection set ups. I had him build me 6 of them so I could use them in the Chinese manifold like a direct port injection set up and I use the fuel rail lto hold them down. I used 90deg fittings with crush washers and compression fittings and then high temp rubber to hold pressure down and seal them like injectors with o rings into the manifold. I could have went easy but wanted nozzles on the back on the valves to be different and k ow I'm gonna have some hurdles to engineer once all is said and done lol
 

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