Considering going back to twins...

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
#41
Depends if your going dct or manual.

There is no discussion the 1m would be quicker around the track as its a lot lighter but I know that it would be even quicker if the 1M had a s65 slotted in between its strut towers, there is no discussion there.

You have to take one for a drive to really appreciate the s65 in a e82 chassis to see how well the combo works.
 

Hydra Performance

Corporal
Platinum Vendor
Jan 31, 2017
181
#42
I believe most M3 the automotive journos tested were DCT not 6MT. I'm guessing that the main reason the 1M was faster was due to a superior torque/weight ratio (despite having an inferior power/weight ratio). And to further drive my point home, note that a boggo F87 M2 is VERY evenly matched with an M3 GTS despite carrying more weight, inferior suspension and rubber, and a 75PS power deficit! More food for thought...

PS - Apologies to @The Convert for straying so far off topic, hope you don't mind :)
 
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Oct 28, 2017
830
Monroe CT
#43
Looking back on the money spent on the car, mods, + having to have a DD yes. My biggest issue now is I want/need to drop coin on a real suspension upgrade and I know a small fender bender will total the car...I am reminded of this every time I update my mod/maintenance excel file and look at the totals ;(. I also keep saying I'm not goes to invest more and it just never stops. It is an expensive time consuming hobby to say the least.

It would be neat to see a thread with everyone's totals listed out. I dont even count the parts taken on and off, replaced, etc...
You should add on insurance for your mods doesnt cost much and really worth it imo. The way it works get the insurance you will never need it if you dont then well ........
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
#44
Yes but not talking dct, why would you convert a manual into an auto

The 1m was a frankenstein of the parts bin, I think if the engineers had it their way not the bmw bean counters it would have been a different monster with the s65 motor from the factory, the only problem is it would have destroyed the m3 and then who would buy one.

The m3 is around 200kg wet heavier than the 1m yet the margin was tiny but it wasn't because of the drivetrain, no wonder.

I'm going to stop there already derailing the thread too much
 

Hydra Performance

Corporal
Platinum Vendor
Jan 31, 2017
181
#45
The quoted difference between an E92 M3 Competition Package, with DCT and 19"s is just 104kg, using the same source, and 27kg of that is down to DCT. Hardly enough to blunt the additional 80PS on offer you would think ;)
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
#46
You should add on insurance for your mods doesnt cost much and really worth it imo. The way it works get the insurance you will never need it if you dont then well ........
If you get a 1m it's going to take a lot for the insurance company to write it off especially with the mods, so your more likely to be able to retain it unlike a 135/335 which you will loose even with the small fender bender these days

Not long ago I had a guy reverse into my car and it didnt looked like it caused much damage but the repair bill was in excess of 15k, if it was a 135 I would have lost it

So if your going to modify something might aswell be something special that you won't loose easily
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
#47
The quoted difference between an E92 M3 Competition Package, with DCT and 19"s is just 104kg, using the same source, and 27kg of that is down to DCT. Hardly enough to blunt the additional 80PS on offer you would think ;)
That's dry weight not wet

The only true way to test it under a fully controlled tests and everybody knows they never are.

To compare engines properly you have to have two identical cars so the discussion is void

104 kg dry is still a lot of weight and in a different chasis so not a true comparison

S65 powered 1m would wipe the n54 period in stock form.
 
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Jun 27, 2017
116
#48
Not long ago I had a guy reverse into my car and it didnt looked like it caused much damage but the repair bill was in excess of 15k, if it was a 135 I would have lost it
Must have been backed in to by a bull dozer.
 

Torgus

Lieutenant
Nov 6, 2016
697
Boston
#49
You should add on insurance for your mods doesnt cost much and really worth it imo. The way it works get the insurance you will never need it if you dont then well ........
Who do you use? I'll call progressive today and ask. They kind of suck but are cheap. I'm going to guess they will tell me to go pound sand. I think it would be worth switching if I could insure all my mods etc.

How do you prove the value of your mods? Like can I just link them to my BBK that costs 6k? 5k ACF ST kit etc?



On the track would you prefer a 700whp N54 or 700whp S65? I would think the linear power increase of the S65 would be preferred with sharp throttle response, no turbo lag, larger rev range, etc. I love the N54 as much as the next guy but I really believe the S65 is the superior track weapon.

Looking back I should have bought an M3. Would of held it's value ALOT better. In 20 years no one is going to want an N54, they will want an S65 powered M3. Because...it's an M.
 
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langsbr

Lieutenant
Apr 5, 2017
746
#50
Who do you use? I'll call progressive today and ask. They kind of suck but are cheap. I'm going to guess they will tell me to go pound sand. I think it would be worth switching if I could insure all my mods etc.

How do you prove the value of your mods? Like can I just link them to my BBK that costs 6k? 5k ACF ST kit etc?



On the track would you prefer a 700whp N54 or 700whp S65? I would think the linear power increase of the S65 would be preferred with sharp throttle response, no turbo lag, larger rev range, etc. I love the N54 as much as the next guy but I really believe the S65 is the superior track weapon.

Looking back I should have bought an M3. Would of held it's value ALOT better. In 20 years no one is going to want an N54, they will want an S65 powered M3. Because...it's an M.
Won't adding your mods to insurance only cover repair/replacement if it's your fault? The reason I drive an older car with mods is because I am cheap and don't want to pay a lot for insurance, but I also know they will total the car out if I get in a wreck that is my fault. I probably wouldn't want it repaired anyways, as in either case insurance is gonna go up a good bit more.

If it's not your fault, it's the at fault driver's insurance that has to cover the value - which, if you have mods - are easily identifiable and can be assessed. The key is having receipts for labor - that can add a ton in a claim.

I think the N54 will be wanted in 20 years. I bet a good number of people bought S65 M3s and have them as garage queens thinking it will be the next Z8. If you were really smart, you would've bought a Supra in the 90s. I still can't believe one sold for 120K.
 
Jan 29, 2018
99
#51
show me 700 whp s65 that lives on a track?

i think you guys are all wrong and an m52b28 is all you need...........
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
#52
Must have been backed in to by a bull dozer.
Nope.just enough to crack or bend everything thats in or on the radiator support. I'm talking aud not us so around 10k

If i owned a 135 it would have been instantly written off as they are worth more in parts these days than sold as a whole, go figure.

My 1M is insured for 100k here.and I dont pay much for insurance with all my mods.

So having an M is a no brainer
 

Erichale77

Lieutenant
Nov 14, 2016
738
Clearwater, FL
#55
You could always look into getting stated insurance. For instance if you have a car that blue books at 8 grand yet you have over 50 grand into it you could insure your car for whatever you state its worth.
 

berns

Specialist
Jan 15, 2018
72
#56
I realize that I am far from an unbiased third party here, but if you top mount the turbo, you introduce a ton of extra heat into the engine bay, next to the valve cover, etc - hardly ideal for track use IMHO. And if you bottom mount the turbo, your coolant inlet pipe (from the water pump into the block) ends up being very near to the turbine hotside, also far from ideal for track duty where thermal loads are already the limiting factor. And that's before we mention fragile/fussy O2 sensors, increased rotor inertia, piggybacks needed to control boost etc... There is nothing wrong with ST setups in general, the N55 for instance, runs its coolant inlet in a different spot, far from any localized heat sources, whereas the N54 (and its DME) are simply not designed for ST setups. Absolutely not what you would want on a high-duty/track application where components are pushed to their limits.
I think you, myself and maybe a handful of others are serious about road racing / time attack with the N54, so we are a rarity. I agree with your points, no doubt, but I also haven't seen many real world results of a setup that I'd like. Bottom mount, small-ish turbo 500whp max, no PI, etc,.. that sees regular track duty. You'd be more apt to answering this than I would, but I'm curious about the tradeoffs in heat and weight between running two turbos vs one. Your points about the coolant inlet are totally valid, but what about IATs and actual heat generation with two smaller turbos vs one? And I see you've just released your own line of turbos, which is awesome, but call my crazy, I have a huge fear of running anyone's twins on track because of all the horror stories, not to mention the pain in the ass install. A single is way easier to service, and backed by a company like Garrett, BW, etc..
 

fmorelli

Moderator
Aug 11, 2017
1,666
Virginia
#57
But you can in a truck. I have an electric 4 door hatch and a big turbo convertible, I did not mix tasks as you can see.
When I had an E46 vert, I called it my German truck. I hauled a hybrid table saw home in it, including interstate driving.

Filippo
 
Jun 4, 2017
843
#58
I think you, myself and maybe a handful of others are serious about road racing / time attack with the N54, so we are a rarity. I agree with your points, no doubt, but I also haven't seen many real world results of a setup that I'd like. Bottom mount, small-ish turbo 500whp max, no PI, etc,.. that sees regular track duty. You'd be more apt to answering this than I would, but I'm curious about the tradeoffs in heat and weight between running two turbos vs one. Your points about the coolant inlet are totally valid, but what about IATs and actual heat generation with two smaller turbos vs one? And I see you've just released your own line of turbos, which is awesome, but call my crazy, I have a huge fear of running anyone's twins on track because of all the horror stories, not to mention the pain in the ass install. A single is way easier to service, and backed by a company like Garrett, BW, etc..
I’ve considering going to a smaller Xona turbo to target a 500-550 max. As far as heat and the coolant flange, turbo blanket.
 

berns

Specialist
Jan 15, 2018
72
#59
I’ve considering going to a smaller Xona turbo to target a 500-550 max. As far as heat and the coolant flange, turbo blanket.
Honestly, 500whp in a 3000lb E82 would be a crazy handful on a road course. My car probably makes 390 max and it's an animal.
 

fmorelli

Moderator
Aug 11, 2017
1,666
Virginia
#60
I think you, myself and maybe a handful of others are serious about road racing / time attack with the N54, so we are a rarity. I agree with your points, no doubt, but I also haven't seen many real world results of a setup that I'd like..
Road racing is a wholly different animal than drag. Even time attack, while closer, is not the same thing. Imagine running an N54 in a 2 hour road race. Impossible to consider at the moment. It's not a turbo problem. The N54 world revolves around the turbo as the center of its solar system. I'm not addressing you specifically, @berns of course, just jumping off the distinction you well pointed out.

There are only so many S-engined E92s to go around. S54 M3s are climbing in cost, while availability diminishes (we saw this with the E30 M3 in the late nineties). The E36 is about to go the way of the E30 dodo bird. So in the long haul - unarguable - none of these are market level solutions. One-offs ... sure people can go swap all they want.

The first issue with road racing is reliability. This comes in two primary issues: 1) Heat is the killer. a) The N54 cooling system is not old school - this idea of throwing hardware at the cooling system is 20 year old thinking with little understanding of how the N54 cooling system works - with electromechanical cooling, tables with non Ve targets, and likely adaptive and predictive algorithms to control temps. Oil coolers are even more foolishness to that - if one can't tame the cooling system (primary job is cooling), trying to tame it by cooling oil (which cooling is an oiling system SECONDARY function) is fruitless in such a pursuit. That is, fruitless without addressing the core controls. Some programming is needed because the cooling logic for the N54 is in software and controlled at multiple points. b) Furthermore, the E90 likely has some packaging problems in road racing trim. That old saying, "10 lbs of shit packed in a 3 lb bag". The packaging is a long conversation, exacerbated by oversized FMIC installs, piping, a very imperfect engine intake air routing design for this application, etc. c) the head is designed to support characteristics BMW thought necessary to bring its customer base into the turbo world. But the 165 cfm head is horrible for road racing - causing the need for higher turbo pressures than we want (and more heat). Maybe with the N53 head one can get 500 whp on pump gas under 20psi? Heat is the monster to tame. 2) Turbos that are motorsport grade are the next issue (they exist but the market has not existed for the N54 - this is a cart/horse problem). @[email protected] was looking at the Garrett GTX 550 small frame turbos, for example, but Garrett has been dog slow in releasing the IWG versions. Other possible solutions may exist - but not much proven out so immature as a solution space in twin mode.

Second the E9x suspension, particularly in the rear, has not seen the kind of development necessary to put the kind of power down the N54 can deliver - consider momentary power exiting the apex is likely 2x what the typical NA BMW HPDE car makes. No one has seriously addressed the rear suspension for this application. And 98% of the "old school" BMW road race people have no clue about anything past an S54 - that's about 2006. Two fundamental issues - the E90 suspension is revolutionary design (not evolutionary) from the prior BMW designs. Next, managing 500whp or 600 ft lbs, not to mention nearly instantaneous torque off an apex is beyond foreign to any BMW road racing specialist - they fairly well haven't dealt with this.

The good news is lots of development continues on the N54 platform. There is work underway on all three of these fronts - cooling, turbos, and suspension - for road racing application. Other work being performed, such as with advancements in fueling support that allow higher horsepower DI native, will also contribute to a potentially reliable road racing setup. Too early to say if this all comes to fruition. But then again, I wouldn't count it out just yet :). Anyway above is my conjecture ... it's also part of what brought me to this platform from the old school BMW world: kind of feel like a foreigner in what should be my father's land lol.

BTW great discussions on this thread - thanks @martymil and @Hydra Performance for all the back and forth. I gave up on the idea of just repeatedly pressing like button on all the thread posts.

Filippo
 
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