Like everyone is saying first you pick the power level, then you pick the best turbo(s) to get there. 
Finally going single. I have tons of questions
- Thread starter twinturbos
- Start date
Like everyone is saying first you pick the power level, then you pick the best turbo(s) to get there.
Power level will have to be progressive... planning to run around 500-550 this year... 600-650 next year... and who knows how much in 5 years.
You're going to end up wanting more power than upgraded twins will reliably support. I've been down that path lol
I've had everything - stock turbos, upgraded twins, and ST 6266. The lag is still there with upgraded twins so IMO the tradeoff was a tiny bit more lag (really not that noticeable) for a LOT more top end. Well worth it
I've had everything - stock turbos, upgraded twins, and ST 6266. The lag is still there with upgraded twins so IMO the tradeoff was a tiny bit more lag (really not that noticeable) for a LOT more top end. Well worth it
That's what I figured.... rather than going with twins and being limited might as well do it once(do it right). What LPFP do you run ?
DIY stage 3 bucketless (twin 450s)
I'm building a DIY stage 4 right now will put up a thread when I get around to installing it
Yes. Or you can go twins, and make the same power, with torque 1,000rpm sooner, and 100 wtq higher.
And when you're ready for the 600-700 mark, the same twins can still do it, and still put the ST to shame in response.
And when you're ready for the 600-700 mark, the same twins can still do it, and still put the ST to shame in response.
So does everyone here run over 700whp on their single turbo setups? I wanted to stick around 600-650whp for now to keep the engine going for a while.
Last edited:
Obviously not, but why would you go for the single?
It's more reliable, less moving parts, but in order for that to be a consideration you have to show the twins aren't reliable. The newer GC's seem to be doing well in that arena, MMP either has, or will soon have, Garrett turbos, and haven't the China offerings held up so far too? And if your goal is "only" 570, there's even more offerings that are reliable (Pure, RB, etc).
Easier maintenance, but again in order for that to be a consideration it needs to need maintenance. And if it's reliable then this is irrelevant.
In contrast the twins will outperform the single in every way, will be cheaper to buy, and easier to tune.
The thing is, ignorant people believe the single will make more power. And that just isn't true.
It's more reliable, less moving parts, but in order for that to be a consideration you have to show the twins aren't reliable. The newer GC's seem to be doing well in that arena, MMP either has, or will soon have, Garrett turbos, and haven't the China offerings held up so far too? And if your goal is "only" 570, there's even more offerings that are reliable (Pure, RB, etc).
Easier maintenance, but again in order for that to be a consideration it needs to need maintenance. And if it's reliable then this is irrelevant.
In contrast the twins will outperform the single in every way, will be cheaper to buy, and easier to tune.
The thing is, ignorant people believe the single will make more power. And that just isn't true.
1. You won't stop at 600. Trust me.. you won't. Go singlenand future proof yourself. Don't want to do this shit again.
2. "Stage 3" lpfp can be made by ordering 2 450s walbros (97 dollars each online) and a bucketless "holder" to hold the fuel pumps together. BMP makes one.. so do other companies that are for other platforms that work. For less. Follow the DIY install and wire it yourself.. so easy.. you pay out the ass for WIRE and eye lid connectors.. lol. I suggest just use their wiring harness if you lack any sort of mechanical ability. It's literally a couple wires in sheething.. it's pretty easy. Hobbs switches are stupid cheap online and as long as it's a 15psi trigger you are all set.. Oh and 3 port Mac solenoids are 13 dollars on Amazon. Yes the same ones everyone sells.
3. You can go single for absurdly cheap and make over 700whp for under 4k. I've done it. Look at pictures of most of the products (BMS n20 harness) for example.. all you have to do is literally depin the connector and switch wire 1s place with wire 3. ...takes less then 2 minutes. Oh and a n20 sensor (2013 328i 2.0 4cylinder maf is like 68 dollars at advanced auto) I'd say 60% of the n54 products can be made home by knowing what you are looking, or can be purchased for far cheaper by just doing some research on their source. (fuel-it upgrade feed/return lines for example cost a whole 26 dollars to make. Fittings and hose are cheap.. lol)
Save money on the simple shit. Common sense goes a long way. Just don't waste time on some twins that will fail. They all fail. ALL.
And.. on3 hot parts kit with everything else pieced together is cheaper then doc race and performs just fine and would be well within your goals. The quality is great. No matter what the haters say. And takes 3 days to your door step.
I even used their 67mm turbo for 13kmiles. No issues. Just change your o2 sensors while installing the kit because they are hard to do in the car.
I have zero preference on tunes because we'll.. I had Justin (v8bait) from twisted tuning do my custom tune and he is phenomenal, never bothered with jb4 after the horror stories and complications it caused others. I do have a jb4 I'm going to mess with and see how the 93 with a BEF does.
I think what n54 vendors do is great for most people and offer knowledge and fantastic customer support. But because people are lazy and are not very smart, they can gouge alittle, which is fine. Capitalism baby. I'm also not saying anyone's product is bad, or priced incorrectly. (The stupid tax is real) But alot almost all, can be done by yourself for far far less, if you use your head
The sheep will be mad soon. And come from all corners of the earth to argue this. I'm not gonna reply. So don't bother ya heathens.
2. "Stage 3" lpfp can be made by ordering 2 450s walbros (97 dollars each online) and a bucketless "holder" to hold the fuel pumps together. BMP makes one.. so do other companies that are for other platforms that work. For less. Follow the DIY install and wire it yourself.. so easy.. you pay out the ass for WIRE and eye lid connectors.. lol. I suggest just use their wiring harness if you lack any sort of mechanical ability. It's literally a couple wires in sheething.. it's pretty easy. Hobbs switches are stupid cheap online and as long as it's a 15psi trigger you are all set.. Oh and 3 port Mac solenoids are 13 dollars on Amazon. Yes the same ones everyone sells.
3. You can go single for absurdly cheap and make over 700whp for under 4k. I've done it. Look at pictures of most of the products (BMS n20 harness) for example.. all you have to do is literally depin the connector and switch wire 1s place with wire 3. ...takes less then 2 minutes. Oh and a n20 sensor (2013 328i 2.0 4cylinder maf is like 68 dollars at advanced auto) I'd say 60% of the n54 products can be made home by knowing what you are looking, or can be purchased for far cheaper by just doing some research on their source. (fuel-it upgrade feed/return lines for example cost a whole 26 dollars to make. Fittings and hose are cheap.. lol)
Save money on the simple shit. Common sense goes a long way. Just don't waste time on some twins that will fail. They all fail. ALL.
And.. on3 hot parts kit with everything else pieced together is cheaper then doc race and performs just fine and would be well within your goals. The quality is great. No matter what the haters say. And takes 3 days to your door step.
I even used their 67mm turbo for 13kmiles. No issues. Just change your o2 sensors while installing the kit because they are hard to do in the car.
I have zero preference on tunes because we'll.. I had Justin (v8bait) from twisted tuning do my custom tune and he is phenomenal, never bothered with jb4 after the horror stories and complications it caused others. I do have a jb4 I'm going to mess with and see how the 93 with a BEF does.
I think what n54 vendors do is great for most people and offer knowledge and fantastic customer support. But because people are lazy and are not very smart, they can gouge alittle, which is fine. Capitalism baby. I'm also not saying anyone's product is bad, or priced incorrectly. (The stupid tax is real) But alot almost all, can be done by yourself for far far less, if you use your head
The sheep will be mad soon. And come from all corners of the earth to argue this. I'm not gonna reply. So don't bother ya heathens.
Last edited:
Yeah how much money did they spent??? The pistons and rods cost more then the fucking turbo setup.
Some people have their mind set on the sound of a big turbo spooling and a dump tube. It definitely is a different driving experience as well beyond the noises... If you want that big turbo experience regardless of the power level then there isn't much that will convince you to stay with the twins. If you want the most performance right at this moment, then twins are likely the way to go, assuming they operate correctly.
You are right, I will most likely go beyond 600whp once I get used to the power.
I was planning on getting a walbro 450, didn't know the "stage 3" was basically just 2 of them together. I will have to look more into this, I'm still unsure about the whole bucketless vs bucket thing, I do a lot of driving in the twisties at night pushing the car and I don't want to starve it. I also think I read somewhere that 2 walbros might empty the bucket quicker than it fills up.
For the holder I have a friend with a CNC machine I could basically get it made for free.
I am just now starting my research, will start ordering parts here and there soon. Plan is to have the car on the road by July.
Thanks a lot for the info, if you think of something else, please let me know.
This is also very true. Most of my friends are running this kind of setup at this point I really like the big turbo spooling, not sure how i feel about the dump tube... it's a love/hate relationship.
He has no e85 access. He will not make that on 93 and upgraded stock style twins. A ST will have more headroom for his goals which he admits are going to increase over time. It's the best solution given his goals and fueling.
Most of the country does not have e85 readily available, hence why a single turbo makes the most sense most of the time. It is also more reliable unless you have not been following the forums. A bad set of twins pops up once a month it seems. Most are hidden by the vendors, I assume, who publicly admit they will not help you if you go to the forums 1st before contacting them. So unless you don't want your warranty and don't make it public.
Again, I think you are mistaken. The n54 mph, 1/4 mile, and whp records are currently held by single turbos currently. Saying every car is slower than the VTT 830 whp car and twins are the only way to go just makes you sound like a VTT fan boi regurgitating what Tony says as gospel.
As said above what the average person can expect vs a fully built block with worked head, cams, intake manifold, two hpfp with PI on top running a standalone is VERY different from an stock n54 block as you would expect. Cherry picking vendors dyno numbers or records and expecting the average consumer to hit the same is not realistic.
I've said it before and I will say it again, no one ever seems to come close to vendors dyno numbers. That is not unique to this platform.
Last edited:
I think Torgus is referring to "on pump gas". It's widely known that pump gas will limit maximum power on hybrids simply because they are smaller and heat the air quicker compared to a (big) single.
Since you are stuck with 94 octane, and you're considering a single turbo already - there is no reason you should not get a larger intercooler. I would consider the VRSF 7.5 Race (or equivalent) to be table stakes at this power level/turbo configuration.
Also, I would keep the secondary cats unless you just want to remove them for no reason. I believe Payam said he ran the full stock catback to 700+ WHP with no loss of power. He didn't remove the secondarys until over 750.
I get the whole, "plan for the future" thing, but it can make for a boring or un-fun vehicle until you reach your final destination, especially in a big turbo car. I would at most focus on the 600whp goal as it is very easily achieved relative to the 500 whp goal.
Be mindful - to reach your 650+ goal, you will either need supplemental fueling like a shotgun or PI, or be spraying a lot of meth. I think you'll also be limited using just 94 octane and meth. E85 is much better overall vs meth. @veer90 made 780 WHP on E85 on a 6266. I don't see that happening on 94/meth on the best day. I'd wager you'd be lucky to hit 700whp.
Well, that's not entirely true. I was quite surprised when I compared @veer90's max effort hybrid to his max effort 6266 and the single made more torque pretty much everywhere. Granted, he was thumping 29 psi thru it, which probably isn't common, and definitely won't happen on 94 octane, lol.
Definitely not - I'd bet most single turbo setups are in the 550 - 650 just as hybrids.
I'm ABSOLUTELY A proponent of twins over a single. I think a single changes the driving dynamics more than I want, and you said you like driving the twisties (I think I read that) if so, a big single on pump gas will probably be disappointing.
There sure is a lot of FUD here. Vendors would like the opportunity to make things right/figure things out before people go on the forums and go "look at this junk." Most of the twin failures have been the uber-chinesium ones, or those pushed extremely hard. I don't expect mine to survive forever at 30psi, it's not in the nature of a TD04 turbo. There has to be a bit of responsibility on the part of the owner. Also, one of the "selling points" with singles is "it's so easy to remove the turbo." Uh, if it's so reliable, why is that even a concern. Perhaps singles go bad as well, but since they aren't N54 specific no one is bitching to vendors here? Blew up your precision? Yeah, they don't care if you post it here, they'll keep selling them.
but you dont hear about people posting how they blew up their precision do you? And they dont have to fear about precision denying a warranty claim unlike some n54 twin turbo vendors so they should be more inclined to post that failure.Honest question, what do you think is more reliable a single precision turbo or two aftermarket n54 twin turbos? On top of that, which do you think is manufactured under a better total quality management system?
Denying warranty claims because you make something public is a shady as fuck business practice, period. It let's you hide your failure rates from the public. For instance, would you rather know about GC V1s wheels blowing up or would you like that swept under the rug? People have the right to know when a product has issues. Look at Amazon you can leave a 1 star horrific review and still get a warranty replacement. Because vendors are held to a standard and people should have the right to publicly review a product without fear of voiding their warranty.
edit: Most people are very reasonable and will take down a bad review if the issue is fixed. Treat people like how you would like to be treated and you will do just fine as a vendor.
Last edited:
I figured it would be enough, guess not, will see how that goes I guess it should be able to do the job for the first year.(intercooler)
Secondary cats are already removed, I believe mine might have been clogged because of leaky stock turbos because my butt dyno definately felt a 10-20hp gain from removing them. It however is very raspy so I will be adding in the resonators.
I don't mind aiming for 600-650whp right off the bat, was concerned I might need quite a bit more supporting mods and I'd probably bust the budget for this year ( On top of the single I'll do clutch and LSD, and whatever surprises I might have when/after installing the single.
I am stuck with 94 octane, The closest place to get E85 is a 2h drive. So I will have to see which step i should do... I will look into shotgun vs port injection and if one of these would be enough not to have to run meth for 600-650whp.
Torgus, I agree, I hate when vendors do that crap. It happened to me once when I bought angel eyes from top gear solutions. I had to delete my post and also wait over a month to get replacement angel eyes which failed again within a few months.
FWIW I daily the single around 650-660 whp estimate (23 psi 14* timing on E85) and I've daily driven twins in that same power range.
The way power is delivered with a single is 10x more fun lol
