Looking for Advice on a FBO Upgrade/Refresh (Single Turbo?)

SSDD

New Member
Jun 2, 2019
6
I am new to the site, but I have been around the N54/E90 forums for about 10 years. I have 2009 E90 335i that I bought new in Germany. I went the full 'stage 3' path back before there were any real upgraded turbo options. Fast forward a few years with some different life priorities (had 3 kids, built a house, job changes) and apparently I'm completely out of touch with the n54 tuning scene. I really like that this forum seems to focus on technical details with a really knowledgeable user-base, so I'm hoping some of the experts here can help me catch back up.

Current performance mods:
  • Vishnu Procede v5 (I know)
  • DCI
  • CPE charge pipe with Tial BOV
  • AMS intercooler
  • AR Design downpipes
  • AMS exhaust
My car is my daily, runs ~100 miles per day, and is sitting at ~120,000 miles total. It has been tuned since about 40k, so things are starting to run out of life. The turbos have had a nice wastegate rattle for a while and the stock clutch is finally letting go. I'm thinking it's time for an overhaul and to just try to knock the major things out at once. Thus far I have done all of my own labor, but I'm planning to have a shop do the work this time.

Here is my general assessment of things currently. Any input is appreciated.
  • New MHD tune, with maybe a JB4 as an overlay.
  • For daily driving, reliability, and a buy once, cry once mentality > single turbo kit. I am looking at the CES and Speedtech kits with a Garrett GTX3582R GEN2. It sounds like fuel and power goals really drive the kit and turbo decisions. With that said, it looks like 600-700 HP is a reasonable number for stock internals and that's my goal. I'm willing to go up or down if that's the consensus. For fuel, I'm hoping I can run 93 daily with E85 on occasion. It seems like the platform has moved past meth, but I'm open to that as well.
  • I don't fully understand the fuel situation currently. I would like to stick with DI. Will a LPFP upgrade cover 700 HP or is one of the HPFP 'barrel' kits required?
  • I'm reading a SMFW is required for a build like this, so I'm eyeballing the Mfactory SMFW and a XClutch 9" Twin Disc Rigid Organic
Any feedback is welcome and appreciated. I am looking to pull the trigger on this in the next couple weeks. Also, if there are any professionals in the Maryland/Northern Virginia area, shoot me a message.
 
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SSDD

New Member
Jun 2, 2019
6
Understood on the custom tune front. I just thought that MHD was the flashing platform that everyone was using (custom or off the shelf) vs something like COBB.
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,035
Boston
I just thought that MHD was the flashing platform that everyone was using (custom or off the shelf) vs something like COBB.
You are correct. MHD is the android app people use to load flashes onto their cars. Your tuner will send you a map that you upload with MHD. You will also use MHD to log and then email the log to your tuna. They will then edit your map and send it back. Very easy.

No one uses COBB or Proceed anymore, old tech. MHD also has numerous improvements and options that are not possible with COBB or Proceed.


Edit:
My vote is get the garret turbo and I agree 100% buy once cry once. I have yet to see a forum post where someone regretted going single turbo.

If you are going to run 93 99% of the time I would get a meth kit. They are inexpensive and the Meth is going to add a good deal of HP. Meth is cheap and reliable. I like my aquamist set up but go with whatever you think is the best kit with the best built in safeties.

For fuel, if running 93 only I would say just get a single walbro 450. If you are seriously thinking about running full E85 you are going to need to add Port fuel injection and redo your whole fuel system. Probably looking at $2,000+ before install: http://www.precisionraceworks.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_59&product_id=77. I would say run the turbo on 93 + meth and if that is not enough speed for you then convert to be able to run full E85 but you obviously could just do it all at once and be done with it your $$$ and time.
 
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SSDD

New Member
Jun 2, 2019
6
Thanks all.

Any thoughts on fueling, turbo kits, or HP goals for a daily driver?
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,035
Boston
Please see my edit above regarding fueling.

What is your HP goal and you can pick a turbo to get you there.

A 6266 is roughly 550whp on 93 on an N54 only as an example: https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/135i-docrace-6266-pump-gas-results.1828/

Brand Turbo CmpInd CmpExd TrbInd TrbExd Flow CHRA Bearings Mounting
Precision PTE 6870 G2 68.02 92.46 78.74 70.21 110.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Forced Perf HTZ Super 99 72.00 99.00 76.00 67.00 103.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Precision PTE 7275 72.40 91.00 82.00 75.08 101.5 Either Rotated
Precision PTE 7175 70.99 93.98 82.00 75.08 98.5 Either Rotated
Forced Perf FP HTA 4294R 67.70 94.00 82.00 77.00 96.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Forced Perf HTZ Super 94 67.70 94.00 76.00 67.00 95.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Garrett GTX 4294R 70.30 94.00 82.00 77.00 95.0 Ball Bearing Both
BorgWarner EFR 9180 67.70 91.00 80.00 74.00 94.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Precision PTE 6766 67.44 88.32 74.17 66.00 93.5 Either Rotated
Forced Perf FP HTA 3794R 67.50 94.00 72.50 66.50 93.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Forced Perf 6466TZ 64.00 88.00 72.60 66.30 92.5 Ball Bearing Rotated
Precision PTE 6466 G2 64.39 86.61 74.17 66.00 90.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Garrett GT 4294R 70.30 94.00 82.00 77.00 85.0 Ball Bearing Both
BorgWarner BW 9180 66.00 91.00 80.00 73.00 82.0 Journal Bearing Rotated
Precision PTE 6266 G2 62.00 81.99 74.17 66.00 80.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
BorgWarner EFR 8374 62.60 83.00 74.00 64.00 79.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Forced Perf FP HTA 3786R 62.10 86.20 72.50 66.50 78.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
BorgWarner BW 8875 63.00 88.00 75.90 68.00 75.0 Journal Bearing Rotated
Forced Perf FP HTA 3586R 62.10 86.20 68.00 62.20 75.0 Ball Bearing Rotated
Garrett GTX 3582R 62.50 82.50 68.00 62.20 75.0 Ball Bearing Both
Precision PTE 6266 62.00 81.99 74.17 66.00 73.5 Either Rotated

It flows 80 lbs. So if you want more on 93 pick a larger turbo, trade off is larger it will be more laggy.

FWIW I run a 6466 on 93 + 100% meth and like it. I need my suspension to come in!!! @[email protected] and then I will finish tuning and get it on the dyno. I am expecting north of 600.



For the turbo kit you need to decide if you want top or bottom mount. Advantages and disadvantages to both. I have an ACF top mount which I think is the best top mount on the market for the N54. Superior design and less expensive than Doc Race. I can put you in touch with Anthony if you want a quote, PM me. I prefer top mount because I can access the turbo and 02 sensors VERY fast and it looks pisser in the engine bay.

My E92 is not my daily but I have driven in 6 hours of straight bumper to bumper traffic. I thought my leg was going to fall off that day but the car handled it fine. If I needed to, which I have, I have used my E92 ST as a daily and it is just fine. No issues what so ever nor should there be if everything is installed properly.

As far as clutches go when my spec stage 3+ fails I will be getting the Xclutch twin disk. Reviews so far have been great and I like the options.
 
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tisdrew

Specialist
Jun 27, 2017
98
+1 everything Torgus said

I daily at 600+whp and full e85 -- it's reasonable as a daily but I have easy-access to e85. As you won't run e85 by default, you don't need the barrel/port injection or a twin-pumper lpfp. Water Meth Injection (WMI) will add a little bit of overhead but I don't know enough to speak intelligibly. The CES/Speedtech kit or an On3 are going to be the budget-friendly single-turbo kits.

Also, check this out:
https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/complete-sub-3-000-single-turbo-swap.3359/

A twin disc clutch is probably overkill for a DD.

Part Category~550 whp~650 whp750+ whp
IgnitionOEM is finePR/BL optionalPR/BL necessity
Clutch335is+dmfw Spec 3+ SMFWSMFW, Spec3+ or Twin Disc
LPFPsingle 450/525single 450/525 twin pumper 450s
HPFPoemoem + WMI**port injection
TurboGT30## or PTE58##GTX30 or PTE6266GTX35 or PTE6466
LSDNot necessaryRecommendedRecommended
TuningJB4 single-turbo base map w/ auto-adjusting -- this can also do WMI controlMHD CustomMHD Custom

**: As you're not going to be running e85, I don't think the HPFP is going to be a major limitation so I don't believe you'd benefit from a VTT barrel kit. If you do plan to run E, then it's absolutely a great way to go DI-only into the 6's.

I'd also recommend taking a look at suspension bits that have a service life even though they don't make sexy power (e.g., shocks/springs, bushings, trans and motor mounts, diff mounts, etc.). Another thing that doesn't make power but should be part of a single turbo install is replacing all the vacuum lines -- some may need to be upsized.
 

Jewgo

Private
Nov 6, 2018
25
I have the GTX 3076r on a speedtech kit. Jeff provides phenomenal customer service. Kit it self is quality too. I can hit gate (12psi) by 3200 rpm on my base map. Driveabilty is perfectly fine for dailying as well. Just find a tuner/tuning option before hand because my tuning process is taking forever (over a month and still no working map pass gate), e-tuning is lame. Might be time to find a dyno tuner but it is pretty difficult when you live in Southeast LA.
 
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Rob09msport

Captain
Oct 28, 2017
1,152
Monroe CT
Brakes and tires please. A good friend of mine never had fast car so we all got older and had money he turned around and bought fox body with built motor and aod. Stock suspension except Southside lift bars and subframe connectors , battle boxes etc the fix your flex special. Anyway a vortec s trim later his first time driving he let off and soon as touched brakes at 130 spun and flipped cause the engine braking plus stock brakes and suspension. Also harness not included. He was thrown onto deer park ave and died as I got to hospital the passenger survived without scratch somehow. These budget builds scare me sometimes cause noone mentions brakes or harness. Even a cg lock is a good thing. I'll tell you one thing when you get a car to hook up 400hp in second feels way better than 500 in third. You get pushed into seat hard. 750 hp good luck feeling 3rd and half of 4th on stock bits
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,035
Boston
So sorry for your loss Rob.

People always want to go fast but never think about the slowing down part or their suspension it seems. People want 600whp but will skimp on maintenance like good pads, fluid, lines etc. Clarkson once said "Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you"

@SSDD When you go single make sure your maintenance is all up to date and you should be good. You may find you will have to upgrade other parts to be able to put the power down efficiently like stickier tires, coilovers, bushings and other suspension bits, etc. but you really will not know what you need to upgrade until you have the power in my opinion. Figure that stuff out after as you run into it.
 
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SSDD

New Member
Jun 2, 2019
6
Thank you for the detailed replies. Looking forward to reading everything more fully when I’m back in front of a computer.

Quick notes about my other semi-performance related mods currently:
  • TC Kline coilovers and camber plates
  • ETS Tuning 2 piece front rotors, 1 piece rears, Hawk HPS pads
  • Modulare Forged custom 3 piece wheels, 9” front, 10.5” rear if I’m remembering correctly
  • Toyo T1R tires
  • Cooling Mist meth kit, currently unused because I was unable to source a safety I was happy with
  • CSL style CF trunk
I am very interested in suggestions about bushings, dampers, etc that I should replace while the car is going through this upgrade.
 
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Rileyg

Lurker
Feb 6, 2019
19
The thing that made the biggest difference in my suspension was installing solid rear subframe bushings. No added nvh and car tracks straight under acceleration and decel. I have also installed all the m3 bits, they help as well.
 
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scrllock

Specialist
Dec 17, 2018
52
Brakes and tires please. ...

It's reprehensible that there's all of these "400+ horsepower for $1500!" guides out there without a mention of stopping or grip, can't count all of the people I've seen who ask about a single turbo kit and it turns out they're running some ancient all seasons.

Don't think anyone's mentioned it, but there is flash-only flex fuel now for the n54, as well as the EOS BPM4 lpfp controller, so you can replace your OEM pump without burning out your EKP instead of just running a secondary pump off a hobb's. Not many people here are going to recommend the JB4 these days unless you want it for WMI control or something. MHD can handle your flash as well as flex-fuel with the motiv eca. They're releasing a wireless adapter for easier logging, many people use it for gauges already.
 

Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,035
Boston
I would go solid metal subframe bushings as said above no NVH. Should have come solid from the factory. I bought mine from Turner: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1452-rear-subframe-bushingsmount-set-turner-solid-aluminum-e82-e9x/

I would also do solid diff bushings also but you will get gear whine. I don't mind the whine but some people may: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1571-rear-differential-mounts-solid-aluminumdelrin-race-e82-e9x-f22-f3x/

Another good idea would be a diff lockdown kit:https://burgertuning.com/products/bms-differential-support-bracket-brace-for-e82-135i-and-e9x-335i

Water pump only because you are going to be right in there and they fail often. Buy from FCP lifetime warranty: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-water-pump-replacement-kit-11517632426kit

  • Cooling Mist meth kit, currently unused because I was unable to source a safety I was happy with <--You did not like or find the safeties included with the kit? I would sell and pick up another kit if you will be running 93 mainly. There are good gains to be had and once installed correctly should be very reliable and simple to use. Mine just starts to inject at 15psi. If there is ever a flow issue or anything else it automatically opens up the wastegates to prevent damage. @Twisted Tuning has a nice meth kit you might check out.
While you are dropping your rear subframe replace the two short brake lines with SS. It's cheap insurance and almost no one does this when they convert to SS lines as they forget or just don't want to do the job right. Some SS brake line kit's don't even include those lines. It's just something to do because the brake lines cost nothing compared to the labor and you are already in there anyways.
 
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Rob09msport

Captain
Oct 28, 2017
1,152
Monroe CT
I agree with the sfb I wish I went Turner solid. I did white line and have no complaints but if was to do again I'd go solid for longevity with no downside. Only thing is the 2 piece white line are easier to install. My car tracked so straight it was almost scary cause I didn't have to correct any wandering when accelerating. The m3 arms do all except camber links do them when changing shocks so as not to spend money twice. Also monroe mounts are as good as dinan for like 11 bucks and are way better then stock foam crap.
 

SSDD

New Member
Jun 2, 2019
6
Please see my edit above regarding fueling.

What is your HP goal and you can pick a turbo to get you there.

A 6266 is roughly 550whp on 93 on an N54 only as an example:

It flows 80 lbs. So if you want more on 93 pick a larger turbo, trade off is larger it will be more laggy.

FWIW I run a 6466 on 93 + 100% meth and like it. I need my suspension to come in!!! @[email protected] and then I will finish tuning and get it on the dyno. I am expecting north of 600.
For the turbo kit you need to decide if you want top or bottom mount. Advantages and disadvantages to both. I have an ACF top mount which I think is the best top mount on the market for the N54. Superior design and less expensive than Doc Race. I can put you in touch with Anthony if you want a quote, PM me. I prefer top mount because I can access the turbo and 02 sensors VERY fast and it looks pisser in the engine bay.

My E92 is not my daily but I have driven in 6 hours of straight bumper to bumper traffic. I thought my leg was going to fall off that day but the car handled it fine. If I needed to, which I have, I have used my E92 ST as a daily and it is just fine. No issues what so ever nor should there be if everything is installed properly.

As far as clutches go when my spec stage 3+ fails I will be getting the Xclutch twin disk. Reviews so far have been great and I like the options.
Thanks for the table and linked thread. That is a great reference.

On the meth front, are you running it at the charge pipe or via a port spacer? Are you using the MHD flash to control it or a separate box?

I am leaning towards a bottom mount turbo kit. The manifolds aren’t as pretty, but seem to free up some room and potentially be more durable. Also the heat seems more manageable that way.

Glad to hear you are seeing positive things about the Xclutch as well. Ive always even mixed reviews on the Spec’s.
 

SSDD

New Member
Jun 2, 2019
6
I would go solid metal subframe bushings as said above no NVH. Should have come solid from the factory. I bought mine from Turner: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1452-rear-subframe-bushingsmount-set-turner-solid-aluminum-e82-e9x/

I would also do solid diff bushings also but you will get gear whine. I don't mind the whine but some people may: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1571-rear-differential-mounts-solid-aluminumdelrin-race-e82-e9x-f22-f3x/

Another good idea would be a diff lockdown kit:https://burgertuning.com/products/bms-differential-support-bracket-brace-for-e82-135i-and-e9x-335i

Water pump only because you are going to be right in there and they fail often. Buy from FCP lifetime warranty: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-water-pump-replacement-kit-11517632426kit

  • Cooling Mist meth kit, currently unused because I was unable to source a safety I was happy with <--You did not like or find the safeties included with the kit? I would sell and pick up another kit if you will be running 93 mainly. There are good gains to be had and once installed correctly should be very reliable and simple to use. Mine just starts to inject at 15psi. If there is ever a flow issue or anything else it automatically opens up the wastegates to prevent damage. @Twisted Tuning has a nice meth kit you might check out.
While you are dropping your rear subframe replace the two short brake lines with SS. It's cheap insurance and almost no one does this when they convert to SS lines as they forget or just don't want to do the job right. Some SS brake line kit's don't even include those lines. It's just something to do because the brake lines cost nothing compared to the labor and you are already in there anyways.
Thanks for the bushing advice and experience. When I get a chance it looks like I’ll need to start putting a spreadsheet together.

On the meth safety front, I got the kit way back when meth was new to the platform. It started as just cooling, so people weren’t running any safeties. Then people started relying on it for octane, then for fueling. This led to people starting to look into safeties, but if I remember correctly, Aquamist was the only Procede compatible option and it was constantly out of stock.

The Twisted Tuning kits look interesting. They seem to highly prefer the port injection method. I’m thinking if I go down the PI path I might as well use E85. The fact that you could use the DME/MHD to control it is really cool though. If I’m reading correctly, you’d have to pick between meth and running EXX via a flex fuel sensor though. I’m wondering if there is a option to do both.
 
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