N54 Cooling - Temp Control Logic and what are your temps during extended track use?

Bnks334

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I run 50/50 bmw coolant btw. Completely stock. No water wetter. No expensive racing r+ coolant. No 100% water. No 100% coolant. Im done with it all.

Does BMW sell pre-mix? I've only seen it sold in concentrate lol (100% antifreeze).

This latest data shows 103c which is normal operating temp of the stock coolant thermostat (honestly is not bad AT ALL for a 40c ambient temp lol). I know the car should be in "high+kft mode" and targeting 85c since ambient is so high, but, seems odd to be running so close to the "normal" setpoint. Maybe it's just coincidence?

What coolant settings are you using? MHD race? Stock? I forget and this thread is too long to look back.
 
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Asbjorn

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Does BMW sell pre-mix? I've only seen it sold in concentrate lol (100% antifreeze).

This latest data shows 103c which is normal operating temp of the stock coolant thermostat (honestly is not bad AT ALL for a 40c ambient temp lol). I know the car should be in "high+kft mode" and targeting 85c since ambient is so high, but, seems odd to be running so close to the "normal" setpoint. Maybe it's just coincidence?

What coolant settings are you using? MHD race? Stock? I forget and this thread is too long to look back.

I don't think they sell it premixed no. You have to add water. I added 1:1, if not a little more water.

I hit 105c in the video doing a fairly slow lap just to see the radiator differential temperature. It does go down to 85-90c if you do enough cooling laps. Here's the log from the video with some before and after data.


If I push the car for two laps in these conditions we are way past 110C for coolant. DCT will head in the same direction and iats will be at +100c as well. Example from a different track on a slightly cooler day below. Unfortunately logging stopped before the end of two hotlaps.


MDH cooling mode was stock, and no it doesn't matter, especially not in +40C ambient.
 
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Davidwarren

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No. People have recommended I remove the fan together with the AC to improve airflow on track... I guess Im just not ready for that yet... also I might occasionally do a bit of drifting. Upgraded fans are mainly for street and drag racing. I don't even know how WOT feels in 1st gear, because I just don't have the heart and courage to do so haha
Just saying, I haven't had any heat issues since I pulled my A/C and cut three huge vents in my hood behind the rad....
 
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Asbjorn

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Just saying, I haven't had any heat issues since I pulled my A/C and cut three huge vents in my hood behind the rad....

No I mean two weeks ago I did some fun laps at Ningbo Circuit in 30ish ambient, and everything was nice. I was 2s off my personal best on the track, so not pushing 100%, but still:


So it really depends on the use and ambient temps. Im really just focusing on the worst case scenarios. That being said, a bit more airflow through the DCT cooler and a better FMIC would still be nice in this log.
 

Davidwarren

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picture of hood?

out of interest did you get a weight of the A/C unit and related parts?
Not as much as you’d think. Maybe 20 lbs total.
 

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Asbjorn

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So I think I will try below setup next unless someone says I have lost my mind. This setup should help with iat and dct temps, while providing more airflow to the CSF radiator that gets the highest volume of coolant flow. Aux radiators are fixed at 3600l/h due to the booster pump.

Current vs new
1332532075.jpg


Dimensions of the aux rad below. Will determine the exact placement of the AN10 in/outlets when the FMIC has been modified.

newcooler.png



At the same time I will try to do something about this situation

805784511.jpg


1602631847.jpg


I need more airflow through both of these somehow. One is an aux radiator, the other an aux oil cooler. Oil temps did go up a bit when I put this radiator in front of it, and had the other shaped into the V.

1738937635.jpg
 

shushikiary

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Its generally accepted that once your total cooling stack space is much thicker than 3 inches it doesnt do any more good. The air velocity is so reduced going through the stack, and the air has picked up so much heat, that its no longer worth it.

Remember that heat transfer works like current, you need a temperature delta to increase heat flow (like voltage to current). You get too thick of a radiator and it becomes inefficient, thus the approximate 3 inch rule of thumb.

Further two pumps in parallel will always flow more than 2 in series, but 2 in series will give you much better pump head. Aka if you want flow use parallel, if you want pressure use series. Putting them in series will increase flow because it effectively reduces the pump head seen at the outlet by reducing the pressure at the first pumps output and increasing pressure at the second pumps input.

Note though that when in series, if one pump fails you'll reduce the input pressure of the second pump by putting a restriction in its inlet path which can then lead to cavitation issues.

Further, when in parallel the assumption is that the head/flow curves of the two pumps are similar. If you use a smaller booster pump and put it in parallel with a pump that has a larger pump head, AND the pressure in the system is high enough due to restrictions to cause the output pressure from the larger pump to exceed the smaller pumps ability to produce head, it will effectively add no flow, or possibly even reverse flow. If in series in the same situation it might help a little bit, but its also possible it could act as more of a restriction if the pumps are truly miss matched. I'd suggest getting a pump that matches the flow rating of the main pump as much as possible, and if not, at least you know has an equal or larger pump head ability.

Note that flow is also not the end all be all solution. Flow always helps, and you always want more of it, but not at the cost of reduced block pressure. If the pressure in the engine block of the coolant is too low not only will it not get enough flow through all the channels, but the efficiency of the coolant to pull heat from the metal is related to pressure. Higher pressure in the block means less ability of a "steam" layer to form on the metal, as well as reducing surface tension effects. This is why in some old circle track racing engines they found the system cooled MUCH better if they actually put a restriction in the inlet of the radiator (forcing more pressure to exist in the engine block).

Its possible that having both pumps in parallel is reducing pressure in the block depending on exactly how you plumbed it. It would be important to make sure that both pumps flow path forces coolant through the block. Never pull coolant through the block, always push it through the block.

Putting them in series would reduce flow, but likely increase block pressure, very possible its worth your time. However equal flow through both radiators must be considered and is why some race teams put their radiators in series rather than parallel even though parallel is more efficient.

Reality is, its all going to come down to exactly the resistance to flow each path has, shape of the passages in the block, etc. You may just have to try it to see what happens for this particular setup.
 
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Asbjorn

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Its generally accepted that once your total cooling stack space is much thicker than 3 inches it doesnt do any more good. The air velocity is so reduced going through the stack, and the air has picked up so much heat, that its no longer worth it.

Remember that heat transfer works like current, you need a temperature delta to increase heat flow (like voltage to current). You get too thick of a radiator and it becomes inefficient, thus the approximate 3 inch rule of thumb.

Further two pumps in parallel will always flow more than 2 in series, but 2 in series will give you much better pump head. Aka if you want flow use parallel, if you want pressure use series. Putting them in series will increase flow because it effectively reduces the pump head seen at the outlet by reducing the pressure at the first pumps output and increasing pressure at the second pumps input.

Note though that when in series, if one pump fails you'll reduce the input pressure of the second pump by putting a restriction in its inlet path which can then lead to cavitation issues.

Further, when in parallel the assumption is that the head/flow curves of the two pumps are similar. If you use a smaller booster pump and put it in parallel with a pump that has a larger pump head, AND the pressure in the system is high enough due to restrictions to cause the output pressure from the larger pump to exceed the smaller pumps ability to produce head, it will effectively add no flow, or possibly even reverse flow. If in series in the same situation it might help a little bit, but its also possible it could act as more of a restriction if the pumps are truly miss matched. I'd suggest getting a pump that matches the flow rating of the main pump as much as possible, and if not, at least you know has an equal or larger pump head ability.

Note that flow is also not the end all be all solution. Flow always helps, and you always want more of it, but not at the cost of reduced block pressure. If the pressure in the engine block of the coolant is too low not only will it not get enough flow through all the channels, but the efficiency of the coolant to pull heat from the metal is related to pressure. Higher pressure in the block means less ability of a "steam" layer to form on the metal, as well as reducing surface tension effects. This is why in some old circle track racing engines they found the system cooled MUCH better if they actually put a restriction in the inlet of the radiator (forcing more pressure to exist in the engine block).

Its possible that having both pumps in parallel is reducing pressure in the block depending on exactly how you plumbed it. It would be important to make sure that both pumps flow path forces coolant through the block. Never pull coolant through the block, always push it through the block.

Putting them in series would reduce flow, but likely increase block pressure, very possible its worth your time. However equal flow through both radiators must be considered and is why some race teams put their radiators in series rather than parallel even though parallel is more efficient.

Reality is, its all going to come down to exactly the resistance to flow each path has, shape of the passages in the block, etc. You may just have to try it to see what happens for this particular setup.

Great explanation.

What I have is the oem 400W 9000l/h pump, which pumps into the engine. Then at the engine outlet theres a T fitting.

IMG_20190715_141521.jpg

The main 38mm hose continues straight through the CSF radiator and back to the pump. The AN10 hose goes through three aux radiators and back to the oem water pump through another T. Between aux radiator one and two, theres a 120W 3600l/h booster pump, that I only turn on when entering a track. Aux radiator number 2 would be the one that sat in front of the CSF radiator before, and is now downsized and moved behind the FMIC instead as per the proposal above. Aux radiator number one is the one sitting in front of the oil cooler in the last picture above. I would have to do something there to reduce the total thickness which is now almost 4in.

Also, given your 3 inch rule, instead of making the second aux radiator 52mm, I should rather go for 30mm I guess. Because the FMIC is pretty thick.

Please let me know if you see any problems with these changes.
 
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Asbjorn

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Great explanation.

What I have is the oem 400W 9000l/h pump, which pumps into the engine. Then at the engine outlet theres a T fitting.

View attachment 29600

The main 38mm hose continues straight through the CSF radiator and back to the pump. The AN10 hose goes through three aux radiators and back to the oem water pump through another T. Between aux radiator one and two, theres a 120W 3600l/h booster pump, that I only turn on when entering a track. Aux radiator number 2 would be the one that sat in front of the CSF radiator before, and is now downsized and moved behind the FMIC instead as per the proposal above. Aux radiator number one is the one sitting in front of the oil cooler in the last picture above. I would have to do something there to reduce the total thickness which is now more than 3in.

Also, given your 3 inch rule, instead of making the second aux radiator 52mm, I should rather go for 30mm I guess. Because the FMIC is pretty thick.

Please let me know if you see any problems with these changes.

Here's the detailed data for the proposed new radiator setup in both cm and in.

proposed setup.jpg


idea3.png


So to sum up the frontal radiator area:
3,200cm2 for S55 (with some covered by water intercooler)
2,200cm2 for nonM N54
2,900cm2 for my old setup (because the large aux radiator was sitting in front of the CSF radiator)
3,600cm2 for new setup (with more than half covered by air intercooler)
 

zcchen

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Any particular reason you are placing the Intercooler behind radiator and AC condenser? I believe, given a proper IC, the IAT should be much cooler than water temp.
 

Asbjorn

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Any particular reason you are placing the Intercooler behind radiator and AC condenser? I believe, given a proper IC, the IAT should be much cooler than water temp.

Sorry for the confusion - the arrow indicates the direction of travel, not the direction of airflow.

Regarding converting to A2W intercooler that you suggested elsewhere, I agree it should improve airflow even further. But I believe it is not an option on the Z4 due to lack of hood clearance. We cant even use the VTT breather, because it is too tall.
 

shushikiary

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The problem with the 10 AN fitting is that its only 5/8 inch host ID, flow is directly proportional to sectional cross area, thus flow increases greatly with increased hose ID. This is both good and bad for how you've done this. Your second pump's flow rate is too low, relative to your main pump, but by restricting its flow using the smaller lines its likely able to produce a higher head, likely making it so that it can match the head seen at the main pumps inlet.

Effectively you already have the pumps in series, but you have some of the radiators in parallel and some in series. Further its ALWAYS a bad idea to restrict a pumps inlet, as it will likely cause cavitation.


If I were you, the next thing I would try (which would also be a GIANT pain the ass given how BMW grouted the main pumps plumbing) would be to get a pump that matches the 33 GPM (9000 l/h) of the main pump, like say a davies craig EWP 150, which already has a 38mm input setup if you get the DC-8160 model. Then plum a 38 x 38 x 38mm T at the return of the main rad to the main pump that also goes to the input of the second pump, then T their outputs together as well. This way they TRULY are in parallel. I'd use a quarter turn valve on the inlet of the second pump to shut it off when you're not on the track as well as electrically shutting it off.

Then for the aux radiators I'd use larger than 10 AN, more like 16 or 20 AN, and then use a T for that on the main radiator input and then another T fitting to return to the same return as the main radiator output. I'm of course assuming the radiators them selves don't have -10 an fittings on them, in which case then 10 AN is as good as you're going to get anyways.

Then you'd truly have all aux radiators (though all in series) in parallel with the primary. If possibly I'd also have the aux radiator that is in the main front cooling stack be the last radiator in series to add a little heat as possible in front of the main radiator. Then you'd also have both pumps truly in parallel to add the most flow while maintaining the same pump head through the engine block as before.
 
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Asbjorn

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The problem with the 10 AN fitting is that its only 5/8 inch host ID, flow is directly proportional to sectional cross area, thus flow increases greatly with increased hose ID. This is both good and bad for how you've done this. Your second pump's flow rate is too low, relative to your main pump, but by restricting its flow using the smaller lines its likely able to produce a higher head, likely making it so that it can match the head seen at the main pumps inlet.

Effectively you already have the pumps in series, but you have some of the radiators in parallel and some in series. Further its ALWAYS a bad idea to restrict a pumps inlet, as it will likely cause cavitation.


If I were you, the next thing I would try (which would also be a GIANT pain the ass given how BMW grouted the main pumps plumbing) would be to get a pump that matches the 33 GPM (9000 l/h) of the main pump, like say a davies craig EWP 150, which already has a 38mm input setup if you get the DC-8160 model. Then plum a 38 x 38 x 38mm T at the return of the main rad to the main pump that also goes to the input of the second pump, then T their outputs together as well. This way they TRULY are in parallel. I'd use a quarter turn valve on the inlet of the second pump to shut it off when you're not on the track as well as electrically shutting it off.

Then for the aux radiators I'd use larger than 10 AN, more like 16 or 20 AN, and then use a T for that on the main radiator input and then another T fitting to return to the same return as the main radiator output. I'm of course assuming the radiators them selves don't have -10 an fittings on them, in which case then 10 AN is as good as you're going to get anyways.

Then you'd truly have all aux radiators (though all in series) in parallel with the primary. If possibly I'd also have the aux radiator that is in the main front cooling stack be the last radiator in series to add a little heat as possible in front of the main radiator. Then you'd also have both pumps truly in parallel to add the most flow while maintaining the same pump head through the engine block as before.

These are excellent thoughts - thanks for sharing!

The 13 and 25row AUX radiators come with AN10 fittings on them. They are more or less the setrab-style oil cooler units. I just use them for water instead.

Is this how I should understand your proposal compared to mine?

setups.png


In my proposal, the only change is that the middle auxiliary cooler is downsized, and moved below the CSF radiator. Then the deep VRSF FMIC is replaced with a tall one that sits in front of both radiators instead.

In your proposal, what I read is that instead of messing with the radiators, you would add a larger parallel pump and remove the series booster pump which is too small.

What I am not sure I understand is how adding pressure to this system, where we have already found that the flow is sufficient, would help lower coolant temperature? Is the point here that the booster pump is slowing down flow through the aux radiators?

As for which aux cooler to get hot coolant first, it would actually make sense to use the middle one first, if it gets to sit behind the FMIC, and then the passenger side second, as it sits alone, and then the drivers side last, as it sits in front of the oil cooler, at least until I figure out how to move it.
 

Davidwarren

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So I think I will try below setup next unless someone says I have lost my mind. This setup should help with iat and dct temps, while providing more airflow to the CSF radiator that gets the highest volume of coolant flow. Aux radiators are fixed at 3600l/h due to the booster pump.

Current vs new
View attachment 29577

Dimensions of the aux rad below. Will determine the exact placement of the AN10 in/outlets when the FMIC has been modified.

View attachment 29578


At the same time I will try to do something about this situation

View attachment 29579

View attachment 29580

I need more airflow through both of these somehow. One is an aux radiator, the other an aux oil cooler. Oil temps did go up a bit when I put this radiator in front of it, and had the other shaped into the V.

View attachment 29581
for your airflow concern, it is counter-intuitive, but make the opening of your ducting about 1/3 the surface area of the heat exchanger. it will pull more usable air.
 

shushikiary

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The drawing on the right hand side is what I was suggesting, yes.

Several things: as far as ordering, you want to get rid of as much heat as possible on the cooler that will have the least impact on other coolers, or be impacted by other coolers. This means, from your description, you would want the passenger side one first, then the middle one, then drivers side. This is because oil temp is better regulated by coolant temp. Oil has horrible heat conductivity compared to water, and less specific heat. Always prioritize coolant cooling over engine oil cooling unless some extraordinary case exists to justify otherwise. The reason I say middle one should be the 2nd rad here (changing from my previous statement) is because with the FMIC in front of it, you want it to be hotter to still cool as the air hitting it will be hotter from cooling the charge air by the FMIC. You always want the coolers at the back of the cooling stack to be hotter than the ones in the front if you can.

When it comes to pressure, adding pressure helps heat flow. It helps pull heat off the metal in the block, and helps the radiator transmit heat to the air. Would I prioritize pressure over flow? No, but you also still need to consider it. This means that added pressure will help the coolant coming out of the engine be hotter, and help the coolant coming out of the radiator be cooler. Note that chasing temps coming out of the radiator is not something you want to do. You could reduce flow to a stupid low amount and get really cold coolant out of the radiator and overheat your engine because you don't have enough flow. Having more flow will often mean that the temp of the liquid coming out of the block will be lower, and the temp seen coming out of the radiator will be higher, BUT IT COOLS BETTER because you've moved more total heat out of the engine. This is why BTU/h or KW/H is a much better unit of measure here to use than simply temperature, temperature doesn't give you the whole story. This is why most good manufacturers of a radiator will give you its BTU/h rating for a given flow rate ;).

Another note is that the oil cooler style coolers will not be as good at conducting heat away from coolant as a true radiator style cooler. This ties back to the specific heat and heat conduction of oil. Its also the reason why aluminum radiators cool better than copper ones even though copper is a better heat conductor. Old copper tube and fin construction is no where near as good as aluminum style construction at moving heat away. This is because copper is so much less structurally sound and so the interesting B and oval tube shapes you see in aluminum radiators are not possible.

I don't know what your budget is here, but you'd be much better off using a true radiator designed cooler than an oil cooler for your coolant. Like say the Derale 61878 or 61178. Note that both of those use a 7/8 14 ORB connection which is 10 AN O-ring, also know as JIC 37 7/8.... yes they are all the same thread size, pitch, and tube ID. The ORB (aka AN O-ring) just doesn't have the tapered 37 degree piece on the end. Note that both of those units core's are just over 3 inches thick, meaning anything put behind them will see much reduced cooling (overall thickness is 4.25 inches).

So back to your second pump, it's likely helping flow in the system, just not by a lot, I suspect you're just not flowing heat out of the coolant as efficiently as you would like. Further more flow will always help, as long as block pressure is not sacrificed. Putting the two matched pumps in parallel will actually also increase block pressure because to increase flow through the same restriction, pressure must increase. If its however easier to do the pluming such that the two pumps end up in series, then by all means do that, I dont think its a huge deal, ASSUMING they are equally matched. If they are not equally matched having them in series is better than parallel, but the smaller pump could still end up restricting flow if there isn't another path around the second pump (which you have in your current setup).


So now lets do some basic cooling math, in much better units: BTU's/h. Engines put out about 37.5% of the power they make into the coolant. 1HP is 2,544.43 BTU/h. Further lets look at your AC, a normal car AC is about a "5 ton unit" which means its about 60,000 btu/h. A 300 hp engine will thus need about 290,000 BTU/h of cooling ability, 400 hp -> 385,000 BTU/h. This means AC adds nearly 20% additional cooling needed... its crazy, shut that shit off when on the track! lol. A typical heater in a car is about 25,000 BTU/h as well, so running your heater (if you're willing to sweat your balls off) would add that much more cooling :). Anyways, if you look at the derale items I gave part numbers for, one is listed at 120,000 BTU/h at 20 GPM, the other is 90,000. Because of how you're running them you need to de-rate them as they are not as efficient as they could be. I'd shave 20% off those numbers.

Based on what we've also seen, we know its likely that the stock cooling system doesn't have the needed 290,000 - 385,000 BTU cooling ability we need when its 100 deg F out (again de-rate for ambient temp, they usually assume 72 deg F ambient air when giving you those numbers).

Lets just guess that they gave us 250,000 BTU/h of cooling stock, and de-rate it by 20% for ambient temp -> 200,000 BTU/h. Lets assume for space you use the smaller 61178 unit at 90,000 BTU/h and de-rate it as well by 20% -> 72,000 BTU/h. Thus, to make sure we have enough cooling, lets say we need 395,000 BTU/h, and thus need an additional (395 - 200) = 195,000 BTU/h of cooling. That means we need 3 of the 61178 units, or their equivalent.

Next lets look at the requirements to get those numbers. If you have a 33 GPM pump, and you just added a second parallel path, and lets assume its higher flow resistance, that means you had 33 GPM (or what ever it was given all the restrictions) through the main rad before. Lets assume the second path (with no booster bump) is double the flow resistance of the main rad. Thus you'll get 1/3 flow through it and 2/3 flow through the main. aka 10 GPM through the aux and 20 through the main (approx). That does not meet our 20 GPM requirement. So you added a pump to try to increase the aux flow, but your 3000 lph pump is only 13 GPM... well that didn't add hardly any flow at all! (see my point now).

So instead, to try to get 20 GPM through the aux, while keeping 30 GPM through the primary at least, we need to increase total coolant flow by a decent amount. Thus the second 35 GPM pump in parallel, likely making you go from 33 GPM to 45 GPM total or so (its not a straight add in total flow). Assuming the restrictions have stayed the same, that's now 15 GPM through the aux and 30 GPM through the main.... lets say that's good enough.

Now you MIGHT possibly cool the system well enough because of our de-rating assumptions even with only 15 GPM through the aux.

So that was a lot of napkin math, but it gives you an idea of how these things are designed.

I suspect that if you added a 35 GPM pump like the one I suggested (series or parallel to the main pump, but right at the main pump, not like you have it currently in the aux path, so that we can model total flow from a "single source" even though its two pumps), and swapped out your oil cooler style coolers for proper radiator style coolers, you might see some real results I bet, assuming air flow is enough. If its not fans can always help, and those derale units can also come with fans made to exactly fit them with fan shrouds, which will help if you cant "jam" enough air through them at speed by proper bumper design, etc.
 
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Asbjorn

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IMPRESSIVE POST!

Having custom radiators made and installed cost about the same as one or two track days. I wont be buying branded radiators after having found out what custom-made costs in China. So that is not the challenge. What money can't seem to buy here is good advice like yours. I have spoken to a few local race car builders, including one that is making an N54 based 135i, but they don't have data yet. All we know is that the M4 GT4 is doing okay locally, with the M6 DCT cooler and a differential cooler. Oil, intake and water coolers are stock. One shop advised I convert to A2W intercooler, I just don't see this being possible on the Z4. Another two shops suggested pulling everything out, placing the radiator in a V with the FMIC, deleting the AC, fan and make a large hood vent. I am pretty sure that would work on the racetrack, but definitely not on the street.

Anyway, let me break down your comments, and ask a few follow up questions

Topic 1) the total radiator size needed is enormous and unrealistic for track driving in +100F ambient
I note that your napkin calculation says that we need more than double the radiator size compared to stock N54, or 40% more than stock S55. This based on the fact that three Derale 61178 offers a total radiator area of 2400cm2 / 373in2, and stock N54 offers around 2200cm2. (Edit: this calculation was wrong, I used the outer dimenions of the cooler instead of the core dimensions)

This contradicts with the argument that the M4 is OK at +400hp. So I either have that wrong, or something else is at play. I have read that closed deck engines need lower coolant temps to work as intended. Maybe they also shed less heat?

Topic 2) Im using the wrong cooler type for two of my aux radiators
This is the type Im using for two of the aux radiators
1188063139.jpg


What you are saying is that this type is fine for oil (engine, transmission), but not for water.

So this is easy to fix. For water I have the choice between making small custom radiators using the normal radiator design:

473541345.jpg


Or buy off-the-self oil cooler that comes with this design

642381833.jpg


I am mentioning the blue one because the design looks a bit like a radiator, so perhaps it is OK? The benefit of going custom, and using the normal radiator core, is that I could up-size to AN14 or similar. The blue type only comes in AN10.

Topic 3) The order of radiators is not optimized, and neither is the coolant flow given the pumps used.
I get that you suggest running two 400W pumps and removing the booster pump. And it makes sense that more flow is always better. Now since the overall coolant flow of my system is already good (as little as 5C overall radiator temperature delta at full bore, see the video I posted), the main point here is that there might be gains to be had, from having more flow through the three aux radiators. In other words, the reason that the total radiator delta is small, might be because most of the flow still goes through the CSF radiator, which is too small, and doesn't get enough airflow (sitting behind the AC, aux radiator and DCT cooler).

So to balance coolant flow better, I came up with below idea, as an alternative to adding another 400W pump. Here the new center aux radiator is running in parallel with the CSF, using full sized 38mm lines. This would effectively increase the height of the CSF radiator. If following this suggestion, I would then keep the two smaller aux radiators, convert them to custom radiators with larger AN fittings, and have them in their own boosted loop with free airflow to both.

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This might be a more reasonable load for the 120W water pump, if I keep this pump. Here's the comparison:

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One of my friends also suggested below as an easier to implement version of your parallel setup. It would probably still require a larger pump though.

In such a setup, would adding check valves be a good idea, given that we cannot control the OEM pump, and that it might decide to run at lower speeds at times?

parallel2.png
 
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shushikiary

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Your math is wrong on square CM. The Derale coolers I used in the math are only 500 cm2, so 1500 cm2 total added surface area. Remember that heat dissipation of a radiator is not solely related to its surface area. Its thickness, shape of tubes, and number of rows are all involved in that calculation of BTU/h.

I'd totally go for the custom radiators rather than the blue type. Tube shape is very important for an aluminum radiator, and thus I'd bet that the custom radiators will have that right, where as the blue ones wont as they are made for oil. For the custom ones I'd get as close to the 61178 as possible. This means 11 tubes per "row" and likely 3 rows at 2.54 cm tube thickness with high fin density. Then 28 cm x 18cm x 8cm core dimensions.

If you're going to keep your current pump I'd stick to your first drawing, if you're going to go to the second drawing then I'd use a larger pump. The reason for this is pressure difference, the lower flow pump will likely do better with its outlet not also pushing against the main pumps output but instead feeding the inlet of the main pump (aka your first drawing). The issue then is that increasing the pressure at the primary pumps input reduces the pressure on the main radiators outlet, thus decreasing its flow. Doing it the second drawing way risks back flowing through the booster pump if it cant produce enough pump head. Check valves would only do anything when one pump is off, because if they are closed while both pumps are one then one pump is over powered and it will block that path off anyways and you're just band-aiding a design flaw. A quarter turn valve to prevent back flow when the booster pump is off (only an issue in drawing number 2, number one the pump just adds restriction to the forward flow) is a better option as its cheaper and likely has better flow than the check valve (in the proper direction).

If I were you and I wasnt going to replace the booster pump I'd do your first drawing. If I was going to replace the booster pump then I'd do what I mentioned before and put them in true parallel, not in between the aux radiators.
 
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Asbjorn

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Your math is wrong on square CM. The Derale coolers I used in the math are only 500 cm2, so 1500 cm2 total added surface area. Remember that heat dissipation of a radiator is not solely related to its surface area. Its thickness, shape of tubes, and number of rows are all involved in that calculation of BTU/h.

I'd totally go for the custom radiators rather than the blue type. Tube shape is very important for an aluminum radiator, and thus I'd bet that the custom radiators will have that right, where as the blue ones wont as they are made for oil. For the custom ones I'd get as close to the 61178 as possible. This means 11 tubes per "row" and likely 3 rows at 2.54 cm tube thickness with high fin density. Then 28 cm x 18cm x 8cm core dimensions.

If you're going to keep your current pump I'd stick to your first drawing, if you're going to go to the second drawing then I'd use a larger pump. The reason for this is pressure difference, the lower flow pump will likely do better with its outlet not also pushing against the main pumps output but instead feeding the inlet of the main pump (aka your first drawing). The issue then is that increasing the pressure at the primary pumps input reduces the pressure on the main radiators outlet, thus decreasing its flow. Doing it the second drawing way risks back flowing through the booster pump if it cant produce enough pump head. Check valves would only do anything when one pump is off, because if they are closed while both pumps are one then one pump is over powered and it will block that path off anyways and you're just band-aiding a design flaw. A quarter turn valve to prevent back flow when the booster pump is off (only an issue in drawing number 2, number one the pump just adds restriction to the forward flow) is a better option as its cheaper and likely has better flow than the check valve (in the proper direction).

If I were you and I wasnt going to replace the booster pump I'd do your first drawing. If I was going to replace the booster pump then I'd do what I mentioned before and put them in true parallel, not in between the aux radiators.

My math was off because I used outer dimensions instead of core dimensions.

So how about this:

1) I convert the passenger side to oil cooling only. It is such as good arrangement, and it uses all the space available pretty neatly. The upper cooler is connected to the OEM thermostat (same as now), and the lower cooler is then connected to the semi-dry oil sump pump (instead of using the drivers side location). This combined cooler has a surface area of 780cm2 x 5cm, compared to the S55 which has 640cm2 x 3cm. So for oil, this should be OK, although the intake is small on a standard Z4.

passenger side.jpg


2) I then remove the booster pump completely, and use this setup, running a 61178-copy on the drivers side. BTW do I use AN10 or still need to upsize?

final.png


The total surface area here is 3300cm2, compared to the 3200cm2 of the S55. But of course half of it will be covered by the new FMIC. It would be very similar to a stock 1M coupe running a huge stepped FMIC, but with almost 30% more radiator area, and associated extra load on the OEM pump.

I then do a test where I measure the radiator temperature differential on track. If the differential is suddenly bigger than the previous setup, and temps are still too high overall, then I add another 400W pump in parallel with the OEM pump as you suggested. If the temperature differential is even smaller, and the temp still too high, then I turn off China, and turn it on again.

No, the problem then can only be air flow. Take the driver's side first. The M4 has a larger air duct inlet, but the cooler is only 400cm2 x 3cm. I would be using the 61178-copy at 500cm2 x 8cm and a smaller inlet. My main radiator would match the S55 in size, but be covered by an A2A FMIC rather than the thinner water intercooler unit. My only solution to all of this would be to spray water mist in front of the coolers.

for your airflow concern, it is counter-intuitive, but make the opening of your ducting about 1/3 the surface area of the heat exchanger. it will pull more usable air.

Do you mean like how the drivers side inlet is made here?

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