N54 Stock DME Flex Fuel
- Thread starter Jake@MHD
- Start date
Plus, the odds of most tuners giving you an unlocked map to run thru the flex fuel 'tweaker' is slim to none. I'm just a nerd and would like to learn more about the DME, I just don't have time to experiment so I got a custom tune. Hell, I'd sign an NDA if I could have my tune unlocked, since I can't even make minute changes on my own. Getting a custom tune has taken an exponentially longer amount of time than I expected. Flex fuel tune probably won't be ready for a year.
This suggests an interesting idea - a locked tune which can be tweaked by the user. Imagine if MHD had many more dozens of options to choose from when flashing a custom tune (or any tune). Essentially all those options would effectively allow the user to do their own tweaking of the custom tune. So need a little more load at 2500-5500 rpm, use something like a slider in MHD. Need to increase maxSpool, do it in options. Lower AFR a little at WOT, dial it in the options. Less timing, adjust slightly etc.
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Convert wrote: "You have 3 options to run the flex fuel setup.
1.Run the "OTS MHD flex fuel map"
2.Make your own flex fuel map
3.have your tuner make your flex fuel map
If you're this confused, #2 should not be considered.
Some advice...stop asking so many questions at a time. You're further confusing yourself, and the answers you get. Just ask Twisted for step by step instructions when the mhd module is released and do exactly as he says."
I appreciate your advice convert.
1. Run the "OTS MHD flex fuel map" - does not answer my question: Is there an MHD OTS flex fuel map.
2. Make my own FF Map: This has been discussed - I know this.
3. Have the tuner make an FF Map: This has bee discussed - I know this.
4. "stop asking so many questions at a time. you'll only confuse yourself":
-I am confused because the lack of clear concise information - and these questions should be cleared before than during installation process. Furthermore, these questions will help others as stupid as myself who have trusted and bought the product in good faith. If you don't want to answer or if you do not have the ability to answer, then simply ignore the questions, but respectfully, I will ask as many questions as I please regardless of any bullying or shaming from you and anyone else on this forum.
5. "Ask Twisted Tuning and do as he says":
-I plan to, but I also practice due diligence and will attempt to get information from the source itself in order to have something to compare and with my tuner's instructions in case there are any discrepancies which may lead to errors. But if you trust your tuner without fail, or if you know all there is to know -- then good on you. Obviously I am ignorant on this matter and I am attempting to gain thorough understanding because it is what an ignorant person should do.
1.Run the "OTS MHD flex fuel map"
2.Make your own flex fuel map
3.have your tuner make your flex fuel map
If you're this confused, #2 should not be considered.
Some advice...stop asking so many questions at a time. You're further confusing yourself, and the answers you get. Just ask Twisted for step by step instructions when the mhd module is released and do exactly as he says."
I appreciate your advice convert.
1. Run the "OTS MHD flex fuel map" - does not answer my question: Is there an MHD OTS flex fuel map.
2. Make my own FF Map: This has been discussed - I know this.
3. Have the tuner make an FF Map: This has bee discussed - I know this.
4. "stop asking so many questions at a time. you'll only confuse yourself":
-I am confused because the lack of clear concise information - and these questions should be cleared before than during installation process. Furthermore, these questions will help others as stupid as myself who have trusted and bought the product in good faith. If you don't want to answer or if you do not have the ability to answer, then simply ignore the questions, but respectfully, I will ask as many questions as I please regardless of any bullying or shaming from you and anyone else on this forum.
5. "Ask Twisted Tuning and do as he says":
-I plan to, but I also practice due diligence and will attempt to get information from the source itself in order to have something to compare and with my tuner's instructions in case there are any discrepancies which may lead to errors. But if you trust your tuner without fail, or if you know all there is to know -- then good on you. Obviously I am ignorant on this matter and I am attempting to gain thorough understanding because it is what an ignorant person should do.
Well guys, the day is finally here. The MHD FlexFuel module is ready! For a short period of time, we are going to run it as a "closed" beta that will be open to all verified purchasers of the official MHD / Motiv ECA (available here.) As this is such an extensive feature, this allows us to have a more controlled test group as well as an easier way to receive and collate feedback. Additionally, this forum will continue to serve as the main area for discussion.
Getting Involved:
In order to be added to the beta group, first be sure to register as a tester for MHD here. Then contact either Jake H, Chris, or myself and provide the Google account that you use for MHD. Once you are verified as having purchased the ECA, I will add you to the beta group and you will see the MHD update available.
OTS Users:
The main feedback we are looking for is logs of the MHD OTS FF maps running various ethanol blends. If you wish to use the OTS FlexFuel maps, you must have the following:
NOTE 1: OTS Flex Fuel is only applicable when flashing a V8 map
NOTE 2: Boost targets, HP, and TQ will taper off steeply back to the pump gas levels above E50 while fueling will remain maxed for safety. So while you technically can fill up with greater than E50, there is zero benefit and actually a detriment to power.
Pro-Tune Users:
You guys should be good to go, just wait for an updated map from your tuner and purchase the FlexFuel module in MHD.
Self Tuners and Pro-Tuners:
The GitHub has now been updated with everything needed. Please be sure to continue to download the full zip file. You will see a new folder inside, FlexFuel, which has three sub folders:
General:
There will be 5 new parameters available to log in MHD: ECA Voltage, Ethanol Content, Fuel Interpolation %, Timing Interpolation %, and Load Interpolation %.
I'm very happy to finally get this out to you guys, I know it's been a long road. Enjoy!
Getting Involved:
In order to be added to the beta group, first be sure to register as a tester for MHD here. Then contact either Jake H, Chris, or myself and provide the Google account that you use for MHD. Once you are verified as having purchased the ECA, I will add you to the beta group and you will see the MHD update available.
OTS Users:
The main feedback we are looking for is logs of the MHD OTS FF maps running various ethanol blends. If you wish to use the OTS FlexFuel maps, you must have the following:
- Stage 1 or stage 2 pump gas map pack
- E85 mix map pack
- Flex Fuel module
- Motiv ECA
- Flasher
- Logger
NOTE 1: OTS Flex Fuel is only applicable when flashing a V8 map
NOTE 2: Boost targets, HP, and TQ will taper off steeply back to the pump gas levels above E50 while fueling will remain maxed for safety. So while you technically can fill up with greater than E50, there is zero benefit and actually a detriment to power.
Pro-Tune Users:
You guys should be good to go, just wait for an updated map from your tuner and purchase the FlexFuel module in MHD.
Self Tuners and Pro-Tuners:
The GitHub has now been updated with everything needed. Please be sure to continue to download the full zip file. You will see a new folder inside, FlexFuel, which has three sub folders:
- Calibration Format Tool - you must drag and drop your bin on this exe in order to correctly format it for use with the FlexFuel XDFs. It will spit out a suitable file with an "_FF" suffix. If you do not do this step, the bin will not look correct in TunerPro with the Flex Fuel XDF, and MHD will not apply the FF logic
- ECA Firmware Updater - this is not needed for now as all ECA have shipped with the latest firmware. This is more for future proofing.
- New XDFs - in addition to the main flex fuel tables, warm-up enrichment (pump and flex) is also included so your cold start E85 issues can be completely fixed
General:
There will be 5 new parameters available to log in MHD: ECA Voltage, Ethanol Content, Fuel Interpolation %, Timing Interpolation %, and Load Interpolation %.
I'm very happy to finally get this out to you guys, I know it's been a long road. Enjoy!
I'm moving this discussion from my Z4 build thread to here, as I believe others may be using the Fuel-It ECA/BT unit, and wanting to integrate with Motiv FlexFuel.
Gotcha. So just so I'm clear (and maybe others), do we know for a fact that the Fuel-It bluetooth dongle is going to effect the pass-through data from the Continental sensor, or is this a suspicion/concern that you have? If we know its not going to work, I need Barry to get an ECA from Jake Hershorin, and we need to do a swap. If we are unsure, wondering if testing it will tell us (or that's problematic, complexity-wise).
Thanks,
Filippo
Gotcha. So just so I'm clear (and maybe others), do we know for a fact that the Fuel-It bluetooth dongle is going to effect the pass-through data from the Continental sensor, or is this a suspicion/concern that you have? If we know its not going to work, I need Barry to get an ECA from Jake Hershorin, and we need to do a swap. If we are unsure, wondering if testing it will tell us (or that's problematic, complexity-wise).
Thanks,
Filippo
I would think in order to continue using your Bluetooth Fuel-it dongle, which in and of itself is an ECA - let's also get one thing straight - an ECA is a $7 frequency to voltage converter - that's all it does, you would probably want to use the harness of the Motiv ECA module first, and then tap the wires and send to another harness that the Fuel-it gets plugged into.
Basically run them in parallel so they both get the sensor frequency. Not sure how the fuel-it would cooperate with the voltage to the sensor being provided by the Motiv ECA though, and you may need to wire the fuel-it ECA to power separately.
I presume Barry is Fuel-it? Im not familiar with that, but I would think that you likely can't use the Motiv ECA on the Fuel-it Bluetooth. The conti sensor has a specific frequency output but we don't have the Motiv's ECA voltage output equivalency and we may not - that could be one item used for ensuring the motiv sensor is used, among the other things Jake has incorporated into it. I plan to tap my harness so I can have a tiny arduino ECA that displays on a 1" OLED. Hopefully it works without issue. I want to get flex fuel installed and working without issue first though.
Basically run them in parallel so they both get the sensor frequency. Not sure how the fuel-it would cooperate with the voltage to the sensor being provided by the Motiv ECA though, and you may need to wire the fuel-it ECA to power separately.
I presume Barry is Fuel-it? Im not familiar with that, but I would think that you likely can't use the Motiv ECA on the Fuel-it Bluetooth. The conti sensor has a specific frequency output but we don't have the Motiv's ECA voltage output equivalency and we may not - that could be one item used for ensuring the motiv sensor is used, among the other things Jake has incorporated into it. I plan to tap my harness so I can have a tiny arduino ECA that displays on a 1" OLED. Hopefully it works without issue. I want to get flex fuel installed and working without issue first though.
Running an inline BT is just asking for trouble. Get it running the way it was designed. You can always use MHD gauges to track e-content. I would suggest getting a slim flat OBD2 extender and run the wire towards the passenger side and buy a Nexus 5X, USB-C OTG adapter, and one of those magnet mounts.
The Motiv ECA I designed is much more than a $7 frequency to voltage converter. It handles a variety of error scenarios gracefully, allows your AIC PI to be scaled accordingly, and is field updatable.
Running two ECA in parallel would not be very easy off the top of my head, as both are trying to power the Ethanol sensor, the frequency line needs a pull-up, they would need a common ground, etc. Basically, that type of setup is not supported. Especially during this beta period, so please don't clog up this thread with those type setups. After the beta is over, if Fuel-it or BMS wish to get theirs working, that is on them and they are free to do so.
The only thing that will be officially supported after the beta period is over is using the flex fuel logic on MHD side to work with progressive meth controllers with a progressive voltage output and meth controllers with a failsafe voltage output. The HSF-4 will be the main one.
@langsbr, you can see the voltage to ethanol % conversion in TunerPro after running your bin through the format tool. It is setup this way for a very specific reason.
Running two ECA in parallel would not be very easy off the top of my head, as both are trying to power the Ethanol sensor, the frequency line needs a pull-up, they would need a common ground, etc. Basically, that type of setup is not supported. Especially during this beta period, so please don't clog up this thread with those type setups. After the beta is over, if Fuel-it or BMS wish to get theirs working, that is on them and they are free to do so.
The only thing that will be officially supported after the beta period is over is using the flex fuel logic on MHD side to work with progressive meth controllers with a progressive voltage output and meth controllers with a failsafe voltage output. The HSF-4 will be the main one.
@langsbr, you can see the voltage to ethanol % conversion in TunerPro after running your bin through the format tool. It is setup this way for a very specific reason.
Added you. The E50 limit is 100% for OTS users. For pro-tune, it is at the discretion of your tuner. They will evaluate your fuel system and should taper load/boost above a certain E% if necessary. Assuming you have a solid LPFP, and either PI or double barrel, there is no upper E% limit
I simply ran two conti sensors. One on the return line for my e content gauge (or fuel it eca if you have that) and the other on my primary HPFP line for the flex fuel. Problem solved.
Thanks for the reply, @jyamona. I won't trouble you any more on this. I will observe two things, though, Motiv sells the Flexfuel unit WITHOUT the Motiv ECA - it's an option purchase.
From https://www.motivmotorsport.com/products/motiv-flex-fuel-for-mhd-bmw:
As a customer, this pretty strongly implied that Motiv ECA is not necessary to run Motiv Flexfuel (why would it be sold separately if required). The Continetial ECA I thought was a black box so I'm not sure I understand how Motiv ECA vs ... is different, but obviously I'll take your word for it!
Based on your comments, I will work with Jake Hershorin to get the Motiv ECA and discuss it with him. Thanks again, for the clarification. I've also forwarded your information to Steve@Fuel-It.
Filippo
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Sorry if that came across the wrong way - I was not implying the Motiv ECA was "just" a $7 ECA. My point is that if all you want from your conti sensor is to display the ethanol content, you can do it quite inexpensively. It just won't have any of the integration you've designed.
When you say you can see the voltage to ethanol % conversion in tunerpro, can you publish the voltage to ethanol percentage? Unfortunately I can't view my tune at all since it's locked.
