Quick spooling for HPDE / Autocross use

MrBlah

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Aug 31, 2019
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Question for those that have upgraded twins, are any particularly better for spooling quicker for HPDE & Autocross use? The lag is pretty bad on track, I have to accelerate much sooner than I do in my NA & Supercharged track cars, to account for the lag in generating boost. No nothing wrong with my car I've owned multiples including a brand new 135i back in 08 it's just the nature of turbos they all do it.

Not sure if I should stay with my stock turbos or go with some mild upgrades like the chinese 17T that are becoming popular.

The car is FBO and I've ran flash only, but now run jb4+bef+meth, mostly for the additional safeties and cooling on track, I've been hitting water temp limp, HP has not been an issue, only the lag & torque surge on corner exit when the boost does come on, while power oversteer is fun it's not fast
 

fmorelli

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I'm surprised you're having that kind of experience with small frame stock turbos. If you are running cats right behind the turbos, that will slow the turbo spool up. Do you have someone tuning your car and have you talked with them about it?

Filippo
 

MrBlah

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This car has catless downpipes but retains the rear cats. I've never driven a turbo that did not have lag afaik there is no fix other than quicker spooling. I think inlets/outlets might help a little bit, along with a S55 w2A intercooler. NA/supercharged cars are instant, whenever I race a trubo car I have to modify my throttle timing on corner exit to make up for the lag, it can be hard as i"m trying to trail brake at the same time
 
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Torgus

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The stock turbos are Td03-10t. Throwing larger wheels like a 17T in there is only going to make the lag worse. Bigger wheels, more mass to spin up, can't change physics.

You are already complaining about tq surge. It is only going to be worse with larger wheels you will just be shifting it a bit to the right as the spool later in the rpm band. You could tune some of the low end tq out I guess. Not sure how that will effect your spool and driveability on the track.

You could look at some RB OEMs with the billet wheel upgrade. That is probably the only faster spooling turbo option on the market than stock and you will gain a tiny bit of power. After that there are 14Ts, 15Ts, 17Ts, and 19Ts which seem to be the most popular sized wheels. If you want a bump in tq/hp and to be able to hold power to redline the 14Ts are probably your best choice for the least lag.

I would fix your coolant temp issue 1st. No sense in add tq & hp if you currently go into limp mode on the track.

Inlets and outlets are cheap, I would go with those and a custom tune and see if it is enough.


edit: If you have E85 available that would help your spool(and power) but it also means you will have to upgrade you fuel system.
 
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fmorelli

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I agree on the tune - not to go against physics but to actually slow rate of ramp so it is a smoother application of power. I'm not sure how outlet would help - increase area for the turbo to pressurize = lag. I'm also unclear how a W2A is going to help the lag. It's probably not even lag so much - it's that coming off apex you have a delayed when you go on throttle which then turns in to the power ramping up too quick requiring you to massage the power application with your foot? I'd think smoother power transition might help?

Filippo
 

Torgus

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There are some gains with outlets, or so people claim, however, on second thought, outlets are notorious for melting...Maybe the OP should just go with some passenger side inlets and custom tune ;)
 

MrBlah

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I would say it's 3/4 a second of lag, so I'm on the throttle 1/2 second sooner than I need to be with my supercharged and NA cars. Does not sound like much but it really compresses the window from trail braking to throttle, on a long sweeper I don't notice it, but on a tight corner I really have to adjust my feet, it's quite a bit more difficult to get the track out throttle correct vs my other cars

I do runt he linear throttle map it makes modulating quite a bit easier.

Track out on higher speed stuff can be a handful in some corners, depending on when the torque surge comes on, one wheel spinning at 70 definitely keeps me on my toes, I'll be going full M3 rear end as soon as I find one cheap hopefully that helps
 
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MrBlah

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Well I am deaf and I think they rattle so would that be something that showed up in the logs?
 

iminhell1

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Logs would show a higher %DC than average.
Should also be able to line Peddle to WGDC and they should trend the same/similar.

My car, so long as I kept RPM up, I had no issues. But I'm so accustomed to the dbw now that I don't even know the difference.

There is things you can change in the tune that may help also, the throttle sensitivity stuff and spool stuff ...
 

MrBlah

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I despise pedal box's that alter the pedal signal I prefer a linear throttle map so it's easier to modulate, MHD's option for that works pretty well for me
 

S54ca

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I second the suggestion above.

Changing those tables or flashing an IKM0S bin makes the car much more responsive to pedal inputs.

There are some other boost related tables that are different on IKM0S which may help improve transient response as well.
 

MrBlah

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ohh neat I'll try it, I run a jb4 BEF and i'ts pretty easy to tweak it, tuner pro is great, I wish I could use it on my r53 mini
 

GreyNBlueE92

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Maybe try map 6 with a linear boost curve. I liked that better than the other maps where it mostly comes on all at once. Try to make peak boost at higher rpm, set it up so boost rises with rpm. Just a suggestion.
 

Asbjorn

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Throttle map

Your throttle may not be linear even if you set MHD to make it so. You can make some logs at different pedal positions to see what the pedal-to-load vs RPM map actually looks like. A lot of maps give you 95% torque already at 60% pedal position at higher RPMs. Here's an example of how two different throttle maps may behave:

Map A: 2psi/90 load at 57% accelerator pedal: https://datazap.me/u/asbjoern/v43l-55?log=0&data=2-3-17-21
Map B: 16psi/172 load at 55% accelerator pedal: https://datazap.me/u/asbjoern/50?log=0&data=2-3-17-21

For track driving I prefer map A, because it offers better pedal resolution.


Cats?

I would definitely recommend removing the mid-cats, or at least changing them to high-flow cats instead. I run removable 400cell mid-cats, and they do eat spool when installed. Same goes for the OEM mid-cats. There's no doubt about this.


What turbo? Well what track?

First of all, of course nothing N54 will feel like NA, so get that expectation out of your system first haha.

Personally I have only tried OEM and GC Lites (16T I guess, but with cast manifold). Smaller turbos and less target boost obviously helps. With the GC lites, I only feel boost lag at the smallest tracks, or if I try to come out of a corner from 3000rpm in 3rd gear because I missed a downshift.
There is one track in Hunan province where parts of the track is actually a go-kart track. Going through the tight go-kart section of the track, I do feel some lag with the GC lites. At larger tracks this is not an issue, and is not something I ever think about as holding me down on track. The oil pressure and cooling is a much larger issue with the N54 on track.

Anyway, I would say anything below GC lites should be fine at larger tracks. If you go larger, you can expect some turbo lag coming out of hairpins at any track. I know of one 1M that installed HP650s (17T I guess?) and got turbo lag coming out of hairpins even at the largest tracks here in China. But the sheer power of that setup means it is still more than competitive. So in conclusion:
  • Small tracks or autocross: OEM or stage 1s are recommended in combination with a low boost map and a good throttle map.
  • Medium sized tracks: Up-to smaller hybrids are recommended if you can afford a quality setup. Medium boost should be enough to be competitive. With DCT, GC lites and 16-18psi I dont have problems with lag on larger tracks, and I can keep up with the stock or slightly modded S55s powered cars.
  • Large tracks: Larger hybrids or smaller singles are recommended. Here my 16-18psi map is not quite enough to keep up with the tuned S55s of the world. You can also max out a smaller hybrid, but that will cost some reliability. If single, you probably need ball bearing + twin scroll as a minimum to minimize lag in real world driving. However I can't imagine any single being right for you. I say this maybe not so much because of the spool, but more due to the transient response (weight of the wheels). The only experience I have here myself is the pure stage 2 single turbo for the N55. Although the peak power potential of that JB twin scroll turbo is arguably smaller than the GC lites, the actual boost lag feels much worse in daily driving.
  • Drag racing: The larger the better lol

Cooling limp mode and safety

The car is FBO and I've ran flash only, but now run jb4+bef+meth, mostly for the additional safeties and cooling on track, I've been hitting water temp limp,

Some points to consider
  1. The reason you are hitting water temp limp is because your radiator system is undersized. This is a common problem with the N54. Non-M N54s feature an effective radiator cooling area of 2100cm2 (1800cm2 for DCT). In comparison S55 offers 3200cm2 just for engine water cooling. I am not sure how big the 1M aux cooler is, but I assume its less than 300cm2. So assuming you are running S55-ish power, and depending on which N54 car you have, the radiator is undersized by anywhere between 800-1400cm2 (124-217in2). The upsizing required is anywhere between 33%-77%. Most people install CSF radiators which amount to a total upsizing of 0%. Thats around 0 square inches in case you where wondering.
  2. Nothing you do in the flash or JB4 will change the cooling performance available from your cooling system. It will only delay the problem by a lap or so in the same way that hitting the track with a cold engine will. This is useless because you need time to heat up tires and brakes as well, assuming you are running proper track stuff.
  3. You can lower the threshold for when water temp limp mode starts with a custom MHD flash. Personally I lowered mine to 110C for added safety in one of my maps. When it is cold outside, I can go lap after lap without exceeding this limit. When it is super hot and humid outside I can barely do one full hot lap. My radiator system has a total area of 3100cm2 minus 300cm2 for the DCT core, so around 2800cm2 fyi. I even added external water spray but it doesn't help much.
  4. According to my track testing, the electric water pump is not the limiting factor of the N54. And you don't gain anything by adding a booster pump to the auxiliary system either, just fyi.
  5. Some people will tell you that selecting a single turbo will solve this problem. It won't. The N55 is equally prone to over-heating, and is equally difficult to keep happy on track.
  6. Some people will tell you that running 100% water and making an outlet in the bonnet solves the problem. It wont. Please read point number 1 again.
 
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MrBlah

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Aug 31, 2019
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well it's physics, adding more air over the radiator will remove more heat, I have a significant splittter now so there's qutie a bit more air forced in, the next step will be hood vents just waiting on another track day to test.

I have read removing the plastic grill insert helps, and opening up more of the radiator core support, it does block a good bit of the radiator
 

MrBlah

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Aug 31, 2019
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135i, 335i, x5d, r53
following up, the splitter resolved all water & oil temp issues. Still a struggle with boost lag, I end up flooring the pedal while I'm still turning in to account for the lag. Installed inlets and outlets hopefully that helps a little

here's a sample, still turning in around a cone and I'm already 100 % throttle, boost comes on as I unwind. I never tried shifting into first, it would be such a quick shift to 2nd I'm not sure it's worth it

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