Upgraded T04 turbos for less $ than stock! Wtf? Link inside

Jul 3, 2018
331
One thing I will say Rob never makes claims of dyno glory and such he actually says go single, now people have hit crazy numbers with his products but if it breaks no one has a right to complain. Now when you advertise crazy numbers or put 1k in the name to lead people to belive high potential it is a diff story. I don't think anyone can honestly cross shop these with a true upgrade these are more if it broke why not give a shot I don't see this being a good upgrade path tho
No, he doesn't claim dyno glory runs anymore but he's never more than a few argumentative posts away from claiming the one glory 1/4 run from years ago these days. Ive been around this platform since 2011, and Ill be the first to say Rob helped get this platforms aftermarket off the ground a decade ago, but back on e90post when we had far, far less options for upgraded turbos there was no shortage of posts claiming "my turbos are the best, and will consistently outperform the competition's" despite consistent one-upping each other from each turbo vendor over the years. Really the "these will outperform the competition" posts only stopped once his competition started offering larger housings etc in addition to the typical upgraded wheels, because it then became glaringly obvious that there was no way to claim outperforming. Rob's issue isn't that hes dumb (even if he likes to passively play it sometimes), it's that he's blind to any other options or opinions than his own even when presented with evidence, and it's honestly a shame because he *is* a smart guy who *could* help keep pushing the platform if he wasnt too busy focusing on kicking down the competition and digging his heels in further out of stubbornness. I cant think of any other turbo manufacturer who is adamantly against upgraded outlets despite having a decent understanding of turbo theory and performance. I also cant think of another vendor who offers PCV modifications to help prevent valve buildup but sees no place for any VTA setup. Its frankly very confusing to me. He also might not advertise what he thinks the max potential of his turbos are, but his claimed failure rates have been shown to be a bit off to say the least.

Most performance part vendors (including large turbo manufacturers) claim max potential (whether through maxing a product out, or from mathematics) in their advertising, so I'm not sure why he or anyone else can find genuine issue with his competition doing similar. How many people really gain 15-25whp from a K&N intake on any NA platform? How many people really run a "600tq capable" clutch at 600+wtq, beat it up at the strip, and expect any longevity? A lot of his arguments against the competition nowadays are unfortunately willfully ignorant or fighting with a strawman. What's really worse, sticking with the status quo of telling people what the max potential of a product is, or claiming your way is the only proper way and that any alternative is guaranteed to fail while yours never do despite evidence to the contrary? I see no issue with MMP claiming 850whp capability on their turbos if the science and flow characteristics are there to prove it, even if your typical budget built daily driver wont see that - that's not on the manufacturer, it's on the person refusing to spend what it takes to actually max out the turbos. Remember, even RB admits the 1Ks are larger and capable of flowing more than the S55 turbos and we all know what a properly built M4 is capable of doing. Same goes for any other vendor like Pure who advertises 650+ capability on their S2 high flows when most consumers don't break 600. This isn't an attack on you at all, @Rob09msport , just my 2c on what I've seen happen with certain vendors and people over the last several years.
Just wanted to mention that I saw a thread briefly posted on the FrankenTurbo Facebook group and it was from a guy who was calling it quits with his FT's due to 2 sets smoking and blowing, said he was going single turbo.

This was about an hour ago and it's already deleted.
This is about par for the course with that vendor unfortunately. I wont go into details because they're so readily available, but Doug/ft stays away from forums in order to maintain his Animal Farm paradise FB page of "best ever bang for your buck, revolutionary turbos". There was also a recent post about some group buy FTs for sale that needed rebuilt at 300miles, and he wouldn't even comment on whether the warranty was still transferable due to the mileage before failure on his non-beta turbos.
Easily, restrict them to max of 21psi on 93 for daily use and only use higher tunes at the track occasionally.

Last forever as long as you don't develop issues I listed earlier
I'd be curious on how the max potential boost of a tune vs amount of time at max boost really plays into longevity. I know you said you want turbos you can beat on daily that will last that long so I'm assuming your car is a daily that you like to put through the ringer so to speak, but theres been plenty of people claiming 20k+ on a wide variety of turbos from just about every twin vendor still around. I know an e60 28psi tune like mine is likely to have higher load targets etc across the board than someone who's max boost is 21psi, but since my car doesnt see that 28psi multiple times a day and I keep up with preventative maintenance, I do expect a long lifespan out of these turbos regardless of the higher max boost.
 

langsbr

Lieutenant
Apr 5, 2017
746
No, he doesn't claim dyno glory runs anymore but he's never more than a few argumentative posts away from claiming the one glory 1/4 run from years ago these days. Ive been around this platform since 2011, and Ill be the first to say Rob helped get this platforms aftermarket off the ground a decade ago, but back on e90post when we had far, far less options for upgraded turbos there was no shortage of posts claiming "my turbos are the best, and will consistently outperform the competition's" despite consistent one-upping each other from each turbo vendor over the years. Really the "these will outperform the competition" posts only stopped once his competition started offering larger housings etc in addition to the typical upgraded wheels, because it then became glaringly obvious that there was no way to claim outperforming. Rob's issue isn't that hes dumb (even if he likes to passively play it sometimes), it's that he's blind to any other options or opinions than his own even when presented with evidence, and it's honestly a shame because he *is* a smart guy who *could* help keep pushing the platform if he wasnt too busy focusing on kicking down the competition and digging his heels in further out of stubbornness. I cant think of any other turbo manufacturer who is adamantly against upgraded outlets despite having a decent understanding of turbo theory and performance. I also cant think of another vendor who offers PCV modifications to help prevent valve buildup but sees no place for any VTA setup. Its frankly very confusing to me. He also might not advertise what he thinks the max potential of his turbos are, but his claimed failure rates have been shown to be a bit off to say the least.

Most performance part vendors (including large turbo manufacturers) claim max potential (whether through maxing a product out, or from mathematics) in their advertising, so I'm not sure why he or anyone else can find genuine issue with his competition doing similar. How many people really gain 15-25whp from a K&N intake on any NA platform? How many people really run a "600tq capable" clutch at 600+wtq, beat it up at the strip, and expect any longevity? A lot of his arguments against the competition nowadays are unfortunately willfully ignorant or fighting with a strawman. What's really worse, sticking with the status quo of telling people what the max potential of a product is, or claiming your way is the only proper way and that any alternative is guaranteed to fail while yours never do despite evidence to the contrary? I see no issue with MMP claiming 850whp capability on their turbos if the science and flow characteristics are there to prove it, even if your typical budget built daily driver wont see that - that's not on the manufacturer, it's on the person refusing to spend what it takes to actually max out the turbos. Remember, even RB admits the 1Ks are larger and capable of flowing more than the S55 turbos and we all know what a properly built M4 is capable of doing. Same goes for any other vendor like Pure who advertises 650+ capability on their S2 high flows when most consumers don't break 600. This isn't an attack on you at all, @Rob09msport , just my 2c on what I've seen happen with certain vendors and people over the last several years.
Absolutely NAILED it describing Rob. No one sees the irony in him playing both sides? "1Ks are disappointing and not making the power people thought" "1Ks are way too big and overkill". You can't have it both ways, unless you're Rob Beck. Perhaps he sees no point in touting max capabilities because he's been left in the dust by other vendors, and he has no R&D of his own. He has no advertising budget, save for forum vendor memberships which he uses to whine and start negative threads about other vendors. Rob, from what I've seen, has NEVER posted ANY results of his own for any of his turbos. Sure, he does constantly quote that one 10 second car from 5 or 6 years ago, but that guy moved on to a single or totaled the car and left the platform.

So far, Rob has kept at modicum of respect towards Hydra. Now that Hydra is directly competing, how long before all of you that bought the hydra turbos start getting shit on by Rob, or hydra himself? Merry Christmas because it's GOING to happen.
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
I'd be curious on how the max potential boost of a tune vs amount of time at max boost really plays into longevity. I know you said you want turbos you can beat on daily that will last that long so I'm assuming your car is a daily that you like to put through the ringer so to speak, but theres been plenty of people claiming 20k+ on a wide variety of turbos from just about every twin vendor still around. I know an e60 28psi tune like mine is likely to have higher load targets etc across the board than someone who's max boost is 21psi, but since my car doesnt see that 28psi multiple times a day and I keep up with preventative maintenance, I do expect a long lifespan out of these turbos regardless of the higher max boost.
My 1m is not a daily but i don't want to drive it like a pussy and be worried the turbo wheels are going to fall off every time I take it out, but I'll try lol.

If i want to sit in traffic and drive like a grandma I'll take the mustang out.

I want to be able to take the m for a mountain drive, open the akrapovic exhaust and enjoy the aural pleasure this system delivers and listen to the turbos sing.

Damn now I want to go for a drive.
 
Oct 28, 2017
830
Monroe CT
I don't see an issue advertising 850 capable but then that should be in spec not overspun and should last reliably.
 

[email protected]

Sergeant
Free Vendor
Dec 7, 2016
462
My 1m is not a daily but i don't want to drive it like a pussy and be worried the turbo wheels are going to fall off every time I take it out, but I'll try lol.

If i want to sit in traffic and drive like a grandma I'll take the mustang out.

I want to be able to take the m for a mountain drive, open the akrapovic exhaust and enjoy the aural pleasure this system delivers and listen to the turbos sing.

Damn now I want to go for a drive.
Panzer now eh, all you have left is Lang and you have the entire SS 3-pack of forum twits into the same mix as usual.

As for your fears, it is a real one for you sir... but you knew that going into it. Keep the fingers crossed.

Rob
 

langsbr

Lieutenant
Apr 5, 2017
746
Keep trying Rob, you know it's only a matter of time before you start shitting on Hydra. I'm sure you will be slightly restrained because of me calling you out, but you just can't help yourself.

Anyone want to start a pool to see how long before his first negative post is towards Hydra or the Hydra turbo results? Don't worry to much, they will be complimentary posts wrapped with disses, as per his usual M.O.
 

[email protected]

Sergeant
Free Vendor
Dec 7, 2016
462
Really the "these will outperform the competition" posts only stopped once his competition started offering larger housings etc in addition to the typical upgraded wheels, because it then became glaringly obvious that there was no way to claim outperforming.
Ole Panzy, still going at it. But still not getting it.

Outside of the dyno gimmicks and charades, WE STILL have yet to see any "outperforming" turbos. The only setup we have seen lay down some impressive ET, was a set of Pure High Flows on a TH400 auto drag car that very recently went a very nice 10.4sec ET. Next up is a long standing record of a full weight AT E90 with only basic mods and a set of our turbos that went 10.7sec ET. These are just the simple facts of the platform, and wouldn't you know they BOTH USE THE OE HOUSINGS.:kissingsmiling:

Reliability is something we have been focusing on (and accomplishing literally to perfection over years), but that doesn't mean we feel real world performance is being hindered as we just have not seen anything else to really suggest otherwise. As such all other "Big Powa" cast setups are STRUGGLING their asses off to click off a 10.9x, and most stuck in the 11.0-11.2 range. "Game Changers", "Stage 3's", and "1K HP Turbos"? You guessed it in that if they are lucky they are in the same place the platform has been since we rolled out the RB Classics in 2010 (on stock inlets, outlets, JB3's, etc).

NOTE: A vendor did go ~10.8-9sec ET in their "Game Changed" N54 with likely $50k in mods, but geez is that even worth including to still not even place over some other OE housing results?

Eventually someone will get the new cast turbo movement right, but rest assured it has not happened yet. MMP came close, but dropped the ball with a mega super duper designed manifold and what appears to be a really rough turbine housing casting. The GC based housings are at best marginally better than OE but with some turns for the worse in some other areas, as such we've declined selling them due to these reasons for about 15 months now. The new Hydra setup is the closest to something great for the platform thus far, and for those looking for a bigger TT "Gap Filling" power range (ie. 600-700whp) it is where we would suggest they turn. The only issue there is that the jury is still out on how they will fair in the wild over time, being such a new offering.

When it comes to reliability (or failure reports) we are judged over nearly a decade of non-stop shipments, meanwhile most others 0-3 years. This is obviously a very big difference.

Rob
 
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Jul 3, 2018
331
Absolutely NAILED it describing Rob. No one sees the irony in him playing both sides? "1Ks are disappointing and not making the power people thought" "1Ks are way too big and overkill". You can't have it both ways, unless you're Rob Beck. Perhaps he sees no point in touting max capabilities because he's been left in the dust by other vendors, and he has no R&D of his own. He has no advertising budget, save for forum vendor memberships which he uses to whine and start negative threads about other vendors. Rob, from what I've seen, has NEVER posted ANY results of his own for any of his turbos. Sure, he does constantly quote that one 10 second car from 5 or 6 years ago, but that guy moved on to a single or totaled the car and left the platform.

So far, Rob has kept at modicum of respect towards Hydra. Now that Hydra is directly competing, how long before all of you that bought the hydra turbos start getting shit on by Rob, or hydra himself? Merry Christmas because it's GOING to happen.
I agree that Rob has been respectful thus far towards @Hydra Performance, but I'm sure Omar is only one post saying "I disagree" or "I think this way is better" or converts a potential RB customer before Rob changes his mind and treats him like Mauricio or Tony unfortunately, as that seems to be the case with him.

Like I said before, I've been around the N54 world for a decent amount of time and actually have learned a lot from Rob's posting (up until about two years ago, anyway) and used to really respect the man and look up to his work ethic and innovations. But once I started learning more and more about turbos, especially about this specific platform, and had the chance to have actual knowledgeable discussions with him I've come to see he's grouchy and stuck in his ways, probably forever unfortunately. I suppose it's a case of "dont meet your heroes" to a much lesser degree. As for @Hydra Performance himself, I dont think hes the type of person who will belittle his own customers etc. He seems like a pretty good dude who's genuinely interested in helping the platform from my talks with him, even if we disagree on some aspects.
My 1m is not a daily but i don't want to drive it like a pussy and be worried the turbo wheels are going to fall off every time I take it out, but I'll try lol.

If i want to sit in traffic and drive like a grandma I'll take the mustang out.

I want to be able to take the m for a mountain drive, open the akrapovic exhaust and enjoy the aural pleasure this system delivers and listen to the turbos sing.

Damn now I want to go for a drive.
Lol hey, fair enough. I'm certainly not easy on my car either, but living in the Chicago suburbs I don't have the luxury of twisty backroads to put the car at 28psi back to back to back - just lots of flat straights that let me hit them more like a 1/4 or 1/2 than the punishment of a course.
 

langsbr

Lieutenant
Apr 5, 2017
746
As for @Hydra Performance himself, I dont think hes the type of person who will belittle his own customers etc.
Oh I absolutely agree. I think my verbiage came across weird. I meant that Rob will shit on either Hydra, or Hydra's turbos, not that Hydra would do so. If I didn't already have hybrids, I would definitely be trying out Omar's set!
 
Aug 11, 2017
1,666
Virginia
How about we all lower the drama and stick to the subject at hand?

Merry Christmas all!

Filippo
 
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[email protected]

Sergeant
Free Vendor
Dec 7, 2016
462
How about we all lower the drama and stick to the subject at hand?

Merry Christmas all!

Filippo
The SS twit trio sure does have a good way of knocking discussions out of whack with their pointless thoughts and interpretations, however in a way it is fairly flattering they seem to care about RB so much.:cool:

Our input on the thread bump merely started in that we've heard some of these units having some fallout, as we do often get "front row seats" to hear about these things unlike many others- it's just the nature of the business. Certainly looking forward to more input as time ticks along.

Happy Holidays all!

Rob
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
Sorry but I did sign up here to listen to the days of our lives crap, drama queens much ?

Derailing a good thread again by a minority

How about the people involved zip it, get back on topic and do what we do best talk about Turbos so people can actually learn something

You want drama go and join the e90 post aussie Melb chapter and you'll fit right in with the rest of the queens.

Merry Christmas
 
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martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
I personally like what I like and Robs turbos have got a lot of flack over the years.

I had robs turbos for almost three years and they didn't let me down once and lasted three motors but I've also learned a lot about tuning and how to make turbos last.

Nothing is indestructible and it doesnt last forever, it's the nature of the game.

Now I got Tony's gc 2.0 and they have been flawless and running perfectly.

The reason I switched over was I liked the idea of the new cast housing with the v band clamp.

Having the angles adjustable made it easy for me to fix the annoying drone my car had from the exhaust because there is no flex joint in the aftermarket dp's like in the factory ones

It comes down to your setup, tuner and how you test it and know how you read your logs.

99% of turbo failures are on the customer side not the manufacturer but its easier to name and shame on websites and social media by the tight arse ninja keyboard warriors that stuffed up and want another set of turbos for free.

You all know if you done it or not and dont try to convince yourself its the turbos fault and not you.
 
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veer90

Lieutenant
Nov 16, 2016
666
West Nyack, NY
Every one of Rob's long winded paragraphs reeks of someone with a massive inferiority complex desperate for sales despite "huge backlog of orders". It's pathetic really.
 
Aug 11, 2017
1,666
Virginia
How about we all lower the drama and stick to the subject at hand?

Merry Christmas all!

Filippo
Ok maybe my above post lacked clarity. I don't need others to back up to what I said. I don't need you to ignore what was asked for. Either move back to the subject at hand or I will start administering posts that have what I deem to have personal content. Move on. My last request - that we stick to the subject at hand, and not finger pointing and name calling. If you have issue with my commentary, feel free to PM. This thread gets to go back to its subject.

Filippo
 
Jul 3, 2018
331
@fmorelli , I genuinely hope this isn't against your wishes - but just as a reminder to *everyone*, there are far more N54 owners than just the ones that post on N54Tech or SpoolStreet. OE housings can definitely do some impressive things as evidenced by the TH400 swapped Pure car (I think that has more to do with the trans brake and proper chasis setup personally, but hey)

These have all been verified with either slips or dyno pics + logs. None of the record holders in this pic had a built motor or anything of that nature either - as someone very very interested in 1/4 times while stayint twins I keep a close eye on things like this to both learn from and know what the competition will be for me. There's also a handful of videos on Yt of cars with cast housings doing very impressive things- to say twin TD04 housings and 19ts are tapped at 600whp or 11.5 times is quite frankly silly - like I said in a previous post, you cant blame a vendor if the customer doesn't want to make full use of the product.

I am interested in how some of these fresh off the boat turbos turn out in a few K miles for sure. What excites me most though is people finally starting to take supporting mods seriously, especially with things like PnP dual ball bearing twins out in the wild now. The next year or two will be very interesting for the platform with all these excellent twin options we've had pop up in the last year or two!
Screenshot_20181224-223619_Facebook.jpg
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
I know that the bb twins turbos are doing very very well and are getting absolutely raped on the dyno and street

These have seen some decent miles on them too

Time will tell I suppose
 
May 25, 2018
29
I know that the bb twins turbos are doing very very well and are getting absolutely raped on the dyno and street

These have seen some decent miles on them too

Time will tell I suppose
Who has the ball bearing twins available?
 
Jul 3, 2018
331
I know that the bb twins turbos are doing very very well and are getting absolutely raped on the dyno and street

These have seen some decent miles on them too

Time will tell I suppose
I mean, a very large part of the reason I went with the 1Ks was because when doing my research and asking around there had been plenty of people well north of 20+k mi on stg3/1ks already, at 25-30psi (let's not forget they come with coated bearings, not just larger housings) so I'd say it's fair to say those have been taking a beating too imo. The only time I ever really see anyone removing them is if they decided to go single. But yeah, having genuine GTX chras available is very exciting and the results look nothing but impressive!
Who has the ball bearing twins available?
MMP has had them for quite a few months as a special-order test program type deal.
 

martymil

Lieutenant
Sep 6, 2017
575
Down Under
BB from jd75 here in aus, they are based on the zage housing with a custom billet cartridge

I personally have been running the gc 2.0 and they are very impressive, I had a few issues to iron out but they weren't the problem but my setup.
 
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