Upgraded T04 turbos for less $ than stock! Wtf? Link inside

[langsbr]

It's a closed group, but here's the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/189...1547719393717644&notif_t=group_comment_follow

Log of the run: https://datazap.me/u/dougfrankentur...4E_uafhneOK1i8dAJN1EPNUnbyZ1obeijPI-lHfYGIGkQ

Looks like a lot of timing for pump gas to me, and some big drops.

He said this showed how well the frankentank works, but I've not seen anyone have issues with the HPFP on pump gas. There are people making 600 whp on just a stage 2 LPFP and no PI on E40, so I don't see what big deal the frankentank was on 93.

 

[Torgus]

That would also make it higher than the best S55 dyno on pump 93 on aftermarket turbos afaik. Which is skeptical as the S55 is superior all around...

What is a frankentank?

 

[langsbr]

It's the tank of fuel he put in the engine bay to supplement the HPFP.

https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads...the-bomb-frankenturbo-creator-is-making.4289/

 

[langsbr]

If horsepower is a function of boost and timing, if you can get away with running high timing on 93 (I wouldn't recommend it) then I don't see why it wouldn't make good power. I think VTT made something like 570 on pump gas but at 4* or less of timing. Add 6 more degrees if it could do it without knocking, and it would be easily in the 600s.

He posted an uncorrected number as well and it just crested 600whp.

 

[Threetirtyfive]

It's a closed group, but here's the link:

Log of the run: https://datazap.me/u/dougfrankentur...4E_uafhneOK1i8dAJN1EPNUnbyZ1obeijPI-lHfYGIGkQ

Looks like a lot of timing for pump gas to me, and some big drops.

He said this showed how well the frankentank works, but I've not seen anyone have issues with the HPFP on pump gas. There are people making 600 whp on just a stage 2 LPFP and no PI on E40, so I don't see what big deal the frankentank was on 93.

Look at the throttle position - it's all over the place, doesn't he know about that and throttle closures, also corrections over -7- Madness

 

[Shane303]

Similar turbos as Franken- TD04 9-blade turbine with 16T sized compressor wheel. (The exact turbos in this thread https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/my-official-china-td04-16t-ebay-turbos.3686/) I believe they are the same as the ones this thread was originally about.

 

[Torgus]

If horsepower is a function of boost and timing, if you can get away with running high timing on 93 (I wouldn't recommend it) then I don't see why it wouldn't make good power. I think VTT made something like 570 on pump gas but at 4* or less of timing. Add 6 more degrees if it could do it without knocking, and it would be easily in the 600s.

He posted an uncorrected number as well and it just crested 600whp.

What do you think they flow in lbs/min? I would love if a vendor would give this information. Even a guestimate. Custom BPT Mitsubishi TD04L-16T upgrade flow 27 lb/min from what I can see...not exactly apples to apples but it gives you an idea.

That datalog is odd, not that I am an expert in reading them.

I'm skeptical of all vendor dynos to be honest, it seems no one in the real world can touch them. Like the 570whp 93 VTT dyno or this 600whp Dyno. It would be nice if people could replicate similar numbers.

 

[Panzerfaust]

What do you think they flow in lbs/min? I would love if a vendor would give this information. Even a guestimate. Custom BPT Mitsubishi TD04L-16T upgrade flow 27 lb/min from what I can see...not exactly apples to apples but it gives you an idea.

That datalog is odd, not that I am an expert in reading them.

I'm skeptical of all vendor dynos to be honest, it seems no one in the real world can touch them. Like the 570whp 93 VTT dyno or this 600whp Dyno. It would be nice if people could replicate similar numbers.

I understand and agree that 90+% of people will never hit Vendor-like numbers but personally, I don't quite see an issue with it. The vendors are usually hitting those numbers on their shop car where it doesn't matter if something goes pop, and they can afford (both monetarily and in regards to time) to replace anything that would go wrong. Most people on this platform nowadays, especially those buying Chinese ebay/Ali turbos or FT are looking for "pretty high" hp on a daily driver that they'll maybe do one dyno session ever and some rolling runs vs. a vendor who's showing what the turbos are *capable* of.

I don't recall if I mentioned it in one of these threads or on a FB group but I think it's kinda strange when people expect the vendor advertised "max HP capable" turbos how they do, considering the VAST, VAST majority of aftermarket performance parts are advertised the same way- I've never seen a K&N CAI actually make 20-23HP over stock on a NA engine except in K&Ns own videos where they dyno with the hood open and giant fans blowing straight at the intake etc.

Personally I just take the "500-850hp capable" as a way to know how much I'm over-building by ‍ just like I wouldn't buy a "500tq+ capable" driveshaft if my plan was to tune for a consistent 500wtq. I'm mostly just venting here and not trying to sway anyone to my opinion, but I'm definitely of the mind that you shouldn't be maxing out your performance parts anyways - plus we've seen a handful of dynos over the years where a customer is making more HP than the vendor advertised (in regards to considering supporting mods or not) from plenty of twins vendors (the "big 3" definitely come to mind that ive seen recently) even if it's the tiniest minority.

 

[Hydra Performance]

Keep in mind that vendor/shop-built cars tend to be better-funded, better-prepped, and better-tuned than your typical self-built car. Of course, there are exceptions on both ends of the spectrum but it is generally the case that a professional/experienced shop is going to get more out of a given setup. For instance, if I really wanted to, I could develop & install ceramic wheel bearings, REM treat the entire drivetrain, fit flyweight drag rims/brakes/flywheel/driveshaft, and gain another 20whp or so on the dyno without touching the engine or the tune...

 

[fmorelli]

I keep making Mustang Fox chassis references to 450hp 5.0L V8's based on adding up the claimed increases ... I think most of you are too young to remember all those HP claims (except maybe @langsbr ) but optimistic HP claims have been going on a long time. Honestly I think HP numbers are specifically interesting and generally meaningless. This platform, IMO, overemphasizes static max values - a really bad shorthand akin to blood pressure numbers. We have this reductionist tendency to simplify complexity into a consumable shorthand. Especially when it comes to metrics and the follies of science. As a colleague of mine, Tom DeMarco once told me, "metrics, at best, are mediocre". The internet has made this worse. In the road racing world, we used a dyno to tune a car, not to figure out the biggest number we could squeeze out of it. On the Internet, it's the latter. Only. Nothing else. Only. It's really ridiculous at best and incredibly ignorant if not stupid at worst.

This is the platform that touts, #sendit. That says it all for me.

Filippo

 

[EthanolTurbo]

I keep making Mustang Fox chassis references to 450hp 5.0L V8's based on adding up the claimed increases ... I think most of you are too young to remember all those HP claims (except maybe @langsbr ) but optimistic HP claims have been going on a long time. Honestly I think HP numbers are specifically interesting and generally meaningless. This platform, IMO, overemphasizes static max values - a really bad shorthand akin to blood pressure numbers. We have this reductionist tendency to simplify complexity into a consumable shorthand. Especially when it comes to metrics and the follies of science. As a colleague of mine, Tom DeMarco once told me, "metrics, at best, are mediocre". The internet has made this worse. In the road racing world, we used a dyno to tune a car, not to figure out the biggest number we could squeeze out of it. On the Internet, it's the latter. Only. Nothing else. Only. It's really ridiculous at best and incredibly ignorant if not stupid at worst.

This is the platform that touts, #sendit. That says it all for me.

Filippo

You gotta admit, "send it" is hilarious in so many different contexts. The great thing about this platform is that there's a lot of enthusiasts even amongst the hordes of "send it" fuckboys and random weird kids that sendit straight into a wall when their Walmart racing tires can't hold torque.

 

[Torgus]

In the road racing world, we used a dyno to tune a car, not to figure out the biggest number we could squeeze out of it. On the Internet, it's the latter. Only. Nothing else. Only. It's really ridiculous at best and incredibly ignorant if not stupid at worst.

This is the platform that touts, #sendit. That says it all for me.

Filippo

Well to be fair: less than 1% of the enthusiasts on this platform road races, tracks their car, 1/4 miles races, 1/2 mile races etc. to any degree worth talking about. Cars sub 11 second 1/4 miles are still amazing rare. 99% are just driven on the street and do highway pulls. This is not an m3 platform where you actually have a fair number of people who might race their cars on the weekends and care about more than peak numbers.

I would expect nothing else from this platform or any platform of similar nature aka cheap HP in an inexpensive car that was not designed to be ran on a track or do any type of real racing. It was designed as an introductory BMW luxury car 1st. The S65 was much better designed for racing on the weekend and BMW actually competitively raced that engine etc.

It is what it is.

#senditsideways


edit: Also, horsepower sells products, not lap times. Which is why I believe you see 'inflated' vendors numbers.

 

[langsbr]

We have this reductionist tendency to simplify complexity into a consumable shorthand. Especially when it comes to metrics and the follies of science.

ABSOLUTELY. I have tried to explain to people for years that peak power is a meaningless metric. I am such a nerd that I will take dyno graphs and calculate average power and torque in an rpm range. Sadly, as much as I think a dynojet is an amazing tool, and really made dyno tuning affordable, they also dumbed it down to "I make 500 hp and you make 475, so my car is faster" with no thought involved.

@fmorelli don't even get me started with the 'hp stacking' and arbitrary numbers from the 5.0 days, lol. I still remember a guy had a set of AFR 185s installed by a performance shop, expecting 50+ HP. Well, his car was BONE STOCK except for some AFR 185s. Yeah, stock exhaust manifolds, stock intake manifold, stock cam, stock exhaust, etc. He was not happy with the 13 whp he gained.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I keep making Mustang Fox chassis references to 450hp 5.0L V8's based on adding up the claimed increases ... I think most of you are too young to remember all those HP claims (except maybe @langsbr ) but optimistic HP claims have been going on a long time. Honestly I think HP numbers are specifically interesting and generally meaningless. This platform, IMO, overemphasizes static max values - a really bad shorthand akin to blood pressure numbers. We have this reductionist tendency to simplify complexity into a consumable shorthand. Especially when it comes to metrics and the follies of science. As a colleague of mine, Tom DeMarco once told me, "metrics, at best, are mediocre". The internet has made this worse. In the road racing world, we used a dyno to tune a car, not to figure out the biggest number we could squeeze out of it. On the Internet, it's the latter. Only. Nothing else. Only. It's really ridiculous at best and incredibly ignorant if not stupid at worst.

This is the platform that touts, #sendit. That says it all for me.

Filippo

Once again, you put this much more eloquently than I could, but I'm glad to see I'm not alone in viewing advertised HP numbers and dynos as something that can be very useful but not something you should take as gospel.

I'm 100% in the same boat as @langsbr - that peak number can definitely be cool to see, but if you're only hitting it 600RPM before redline then it doesnt matter much imo. I'd take a beautiful, flat and consistent TQ curve over high peak HP any day of the week.

 

[135iTX]

Not to be a dick but this platform is full of people that are just afraid to pull the trigger and try shit. I give more credit to the kids running cheap turbos but actually trying to make their cars faster than all the elitist BMW fanboys who talk about inlets/outlet flow numbers and intercooler fin densities for 50+ hours

 

[vegasboy]

I love how everyone just assumes because you haven't heard from people using these china turbos that they had problems and fell silent. The scare tactics to sell turbos are just ridiculous around here. My china turbos are still going strong, no problems, no burning oil and plenty of power. I would have to check my exact mileage but I have somewhere around 5500-6000 miles on them. My only problem is I'm out of fuel to push these turbos the way I would like to. I have settled on 19lbs of boost for my daily driving. The "Franken tank" looks promising, is too bad people on these forums gave him so much shit that he stopped posting.

My opinion is that it has come to the point these cars have lost so much value they do not warrant a $4000 set of turbos. I'll let you guys know if i have any problems with these turbos. Please don't assume my turbos have blown up because I don't post an update every week.

 

[Josh_G]

^^^ this.. you don't ever hear good stories on the forums about cheap parts.. only ever bad stories.

i would say silence is golden on these turbos, if they blew you would think people would be on the forums complaining and slating them, clearly all the guys with them installed are out enjoying their cars because they are working and making power!!

I also agree, 335i's are available for £5k in the UK now (not that i would buy one that cheap!!) no one is putting £5K of turbos/install in a car they paid £5k for!! although i often say the N54 is the new civic ahaha

 

[Torgus]

The "Franken tank" looks promising, is too bad people on these forums gave him so much shit that he stopped posting.

Trust me when I say we ALL wish FT started posting on the forums again

 

[Threetirtyfive]

I love how everyone just assumes because you haven't heard from people using these china turbos that they had problems and fell silent. The scare tactics to sell turbos are just ridiculous around here. My china turbos are still going strong, no problems, no burning oil and plenty of power. I would have to check my exact mileage but I have somewhere around 5500-6000 miles on them. My only problem is I'm out of fuel to push these turbos the way I would like to. I have settled on 19lbs of boost for my daily driving. The "Franken tank" looks promising, is too bad people on these forums gave him so much shit that he stopped posting.

My opinion is that it has come to the point these cars have lost so much value they do not warrant a $4000 set of turbos. I'll let you guys know if i have any problems with these turbos. Please don't assume my turbos have blown up because I don't post an update every week.

Awesome to hear, and not that surprising. As above, major manufacturers do employ some ridiculous scare tactics, especially when these come in cheaper than even Frankenturbos. (who I thought no longer posted due to the permanence of forum posts, where they can control their posts (and members) on Facebook)

 

[EthanolTurbo]

I love how everyone just assumes because you haven't heard from people using these china turbos that they had problems and fell silent. The scare tactics to sell turbos are just ridiculous around here. My china turbos are still going strong, no problems, no burning oil and plenty of power. I would have to check my exact mileage but I have somewhere around 5500-6000 miles on them. My only problem is I'm out of fuel to push these turbos the way I would like to. I have settled on 19lbs of boost for my daily driving. The "Franken tank" looks promising, is too bad people on these forums gave him so much shit that he stopped posting.

My opinion is that it has come to the point these cars have lost so much value they do not warrant a $4000 set of turbos. I'll let you guys know if i have any problems with these turbos. Please don't assume my turbos have blown up because I don't post an update every week.

Agreed (except about the FrankenTank. Putting a fuel tank in an engine bay sounds like a good way to grenade your car). I really like the idea of $1000 turbos being the norm since these cars are 5-10k now. You're gonna pay almost as much in labor though to get them installed so they're best as a DIY item.

Awesome to hear, and not that surprising. As above, major manufacturers do employ some ridiculous scare tactics, especially when these come in cheaper than even Frankenturbos. (who I thought no longer posted due to the permanence of forum posts, where they can control their posts (and members) on Facebook)

I think I posted earlier in this thread that I saw a post in the FrankenTurbo FB group about someone's turbos blowing twice and saying they're done with FrankenTurbo and going to a single turbo build... And it was deleted less than an hour later lol.

There's also a guy named Curtis Williams on FB in the 335i Mods group that has just installed these and is about to tune and dyno them on E85.