User Review - Wedge Performance vs. Twisted Tuning

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matreyia

Captain
Apr 19, 2017
1,440
Car: AFE Cold Air Intake, MMP 2 inch inlet,outlets/ Dinan Oil Cooler/ Dinan Intercooler/ CSF Aluminum upgraded Radiator/Propulsive Dynamics Tranny/xHP stage 3/ MHD with M-Boost Option (don't know if this is being used) / VRSF DP/Forge DV valves/upgraded all hoses to silicon/BMW Performance Exhaust/Stock Turbos/Engine and turbos less than 25K miles/3.5 tMap upgrade/M Factor LSD/ Stage 2 LFPF Precision Raceworks


Wedge Performance:

PROS: Somewhat responsive to emails or texts. Decent power on WOT.

CONS: Not daily usable with inlets/outlets upgrade. Car would feel like hesitating, or surging, uncontrolled for any realistic daily driving. Also did not feel smooth when throttling or idling...as if it were off time or something. Gas mileage was nearly unsustainable... from 19 mpg city to 12 mpg city. I stopped requesting maps on the 12th revision. Just wasn't working at all.


Twisted Tuning:

PROS: Smoother overall throttle and idle, more control feeling when using pedal. Can be daily driven with acceptable confidence. Gas mileage returned to "normal" rates...17-19 city and 24-26 highway. More detailed log items request...resulting in increased smoothness and response and usability in daily driving. Twisted asked for 4 different logs (to take into account different driving contexts) each session while Wedge only requested 1 log per session.

CONS:
1. Communication with tuner is spotty at best. *Note: Due to personal situation at the home front at Twisted Tuning, comms were down during the period mentioned here.

2. Final Results Still Pending: I can't tell any appreciable difference or increase in power between this tune (upgraded 3.5 tmap sensor + 2 inch inlet outlets) vs. my Dinan Stage 3 tune on stock inlet/outlets and stock t-map sensor. To be sure, there is more power than bone stock profile... but not noticeable as with Wedge Tuning. I asked if we could how much more power we could squeeze from this setup as it is almost new engine, new turbos and all new upgraded coolant, oil, ATF cooler, and Propulsive Dynamics tranny... but still no reply on this comment from Twisted. *Note: Due to personal situation at the home front at Twisted Tuning, comms were down during the period mentioned here.


TRADE OFFS:

Wedge: Power, but not usability - car may feel like it is going to fall apart even at normal driving.

Twisted Final Results Still Pending:: Usability but not noticable power gains. In order to feel any power, you may have to mash your foot all the way to the floor. - Justin has emailed a new revision and I will log and drive for another week on it and give my feedback. It appears that the Twisted Tuning sessions are still on going until notified by Justin.

MY TAKEAWAY:
Nobody has demonstrably shown any substantial increase in power from tuning to inlets/outlets. So I assume that there is zero benefit if you are on stock turbos like I am....or nobody actually knows or cares to consider inlets or outlet upgrades...or nobody has the time to actually show and explain to me the numbers that show that they did tune with upgraded inlet/outlet diameters.

At this point, I am beginning to think I should have just disregarded all the mumbo jumbo marketing from those inlet/outlet makers and stuck with my original Dinan S3 tune and mods. Because I just don't see any appreciable increase in power delivery and I see a decrease in responsiveness and drivability.

Now this may change after today's notice given to me by Justin of Twisted Tuning. He has sent another revision and I will log and test and give my feedback. Perhaps I was premature in this review. I see great potential with Twisted and hope that this interruption was the only reason I had not seen inlet/outlet gains yet.


In the end, if unsuccessful, I may just revert to the stock t map sensor and attempt to reinstall replacement stock inlet/outlets and reinstall my Dinan S3 tune.
Please stay tuned for updates as I get revisions.

VT
 
Last edited:

bradsm87

Corporal
Dec 15, 2016
162
Your post is undoubtedly going to stir the pot a bit.

You shouldn't think that one tune might be better than another due to power output. To me, if one tuner's tune makes more power than another, you need to ask yourself why. Usually it's a matter of running more boost and/or leaner which means one has compromised safety more so than the other.

That's a good observation about inlets/outlets with stock turbos and I suspect you're exactly right - very little gains.

It sounds like you have a great tune from TwistedTuning now. Why on earth would you go back to Dinan? If there's something you'd like changed, just ask Justin. He'll reply in due course. He's a very busy man.
 
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matreyia

Captain
Apr 19, 2017
1,440
Your post is undoubtedly going to stir the pot a bit.

You shouldn't think that one tune might be better than another due to power output. To me, if one tuner's tune makes more power than another, you need to ask yourself why. Usually it's a matter of running more boost and/or leaner which means one has compromised safety more so than the other.

That's a good observation about inlets/outlets with stock turbos and I suspect you're exactly right - very little gains.

It sounds like you have a great tune from TwistedTuning now. Why on earth would you go back to Dinan? If there's something you'd like changed, just ask Justin. He'll reply in due course. He's a very busy man.
------

At this point I am not interested in power only, but rather usability. The Wedge tune is borderline unusable. Why go back to Dinan? Because so far, I have not seen any more power from Twisted...but that may change with this third revision which I will install tonight and test this week throughout.

I have only Dinan to compare the two tuners. And as of now...neither one can deliver as silky smooth response with power as the Dinan s3 I had previously. It's either raw power with no daily usability...stop and go traffic feels like it would explode the engine under Wedge and 12mpg is even worse than a Lambo v10. On the other hand, the smoother Twisted is much more desirable but the power is on par with Dinan and not yet noticeably stronger...so maybe with this new revision, the power will surpass Dinan S3 and things will be handy dandy.

till then, stay tuned for updates.
 

bradsm87

Corporal
Dec 15, 2016
162
Dinan Stage 3? or which tuner? both companies have their strengths and weaknesses...please see previous edits to my post.
I mean which one is it: you don't just care about outright power or you do because you said you'd go back to Dinan "Why go back to Dinan? Because so far, I have not seen any more power from Twisted.". So you're saying that an increase in maximum power would be the only grounds to keep the Twisted tune? You gave a lot of advantages to the Twisted tune, so it's not just about power. If you want slightly different accelerator pedal mapping for example, all you have to do is ask. If you want more/less power through the midrange, all you have to do is ask. The Dinan tune is just a universal OTS map.

Edit: I see you've edited your post since but my recommendation is to keep working with Twisted and you'll get what you want.
 
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matreyia

Captain
Apr 19, 2017
1,440
Basically, there is no point in leaving Dinan S3 and adding inlets/outlets if that means a sacrifice in drivability OR if there is no power to be gained. I don't know if I can make it any more simple to understand. Universal OTS or not...The Dinan S3 so far is superior to both tuners in terms of power and drivability. There's just no comparison. It's throttle response is like a razor blade, and deliver is smooth and predictable.

Not so with Wedge with its uncontrolled raw power without driveability or predictability.
and with Twisted - it's smooth than Wedge, but that doesn't mean that it's anywhere close to the Dinan OTS Stage 3 map and as I already said, the power gains from the Twisted maps may be more powerful, but not noticeably.

I tell you what... if anyone could get more power than Dinan with half as much control as the Dinan S3 map...I would stick with that tune forever. Because it's not fair to expect predictability and smoothness of a Dinan map when I am asking for gobs more power. So I understand and am ready to accept SOME smoothness and predictability loss IF there is noticeable gains to be made. As long as the car is daily drivable, I don't demand ultra stock smoothness. That would be unreasonable on my part. But it would also be unreasonable to give loads of power and ask me to accept an un-drivable unpredictable car.

As mentioned before, Twisted Maps and results are still pending since comms have been re-established and Justin has sent a new map which is yet to be installed. Will update as results come in.

VT
 

BamaGenoN54

New Member
Jul 23, 2017
7
Unless you fully express your goals with a tune you are leaving alot for any tuner to decide for you. I have had many tunes done and through repeated revisions have had my goals accomplished every time. It is important to set an expectation for your tuner so together you can accomplish them. After that is when you can make an assessment of someones talent.
 

matreyia

Captain
Apr 19, 2017
1,440
Unless you fully express your goals with a tune you are leaving alot for any tuner to decide for you. I have had many tunes done and through repeated revisions have had my goals accomplished every time. It is important to set an expectation for your tuner so together you can accomplish them. After that is when you can make an assessment of someones talent.

Would you like me to post my entire exchange with both tuners so you can re-asses what you just wrote? I think there is an export function for sms on my android. I will be glad to.
 

matreyia

Captain
Apr 19, 2017
1,440
No log at all? What kind of tune review is this...

But again, wedge sucks and he isn’t a real tuner.
Not interested in bashing anyone here. Reporting only what I have experienced.
Last night , I installed the 4th Twisted rwvision and it feels much better, more responsive and more power. Will log and get a 5th revision to hopefully iron out some minor kinks.
 

dyezak

Major
May 4, 2017
1,768
Plano TX
The only useful comment I'm likely to make in this thread:

Remember, the better a tuner is the more their reputation precedes them. This also has an impact on availability. If you want to work with a good tuner you better have patience and understanding. This goes for getting on their radar (initial response) to follow up and turnaround times (email or txt) for map tweaks and updates. This is truly a world where the golden consumer triangle applies:

Cost - Time - Quality

You can influence two of the legs of the triangle, but never all three. Want low cost quickly? Then you get a OTS tune and the quality suffers. Want the best quality and want to save money? Then the tuner will take care of you when he/she has time and your turnaround time will suffer. Want the best map tomorrow? Then you'll have to pay for the tuner to clear their calendar and devote all their time to you.

Keep this in mind when working with and evaluating a tuner.
 

cloud9blue

Sergeant
Oct 17, 2017
253
The only useful comment I'm likely to make in this thread:

Remember, the better a tuner is the more their reputation precedes them. This also has an impact on availability. If you want to work with a good tuner you better have patience and understanding. This goes for getting on their radar (initial response) to follow up and turnaround times (email or txt) for map tweaks and updates. This is truly a world where the golden consumer triangle applies:

Cost - Time - Quality

You can influence two of the legs of the triangle, but never all three. Want low cost quickly? Then you get a OTS tune and the quality suffers. Want the best quality and want to save money? Then the tuner will take care of you when he/she has time and your turnaround time will suffer. Want the best map tomorrow? Then you'll have to pay for the tuner to clear their calendar and devote all their time to you.

Keep this in mind when working with and evaluating a tuner.
I will add this, it helps when the customer is educated and knows what he/she wants out of their setup.
 

matreyia

Captain
Apr 19, 2017
1,440
The only useful comment I'm likely to make in this thread:

Remember, the better a tuner is the more their reputation precedes them. This also has an impact on availability. If you want to work with a good tuner you better have patience and understanding. This goes for getting on their radar (initial response) to follow up and turnaround times (email or txt) for map tweaks and updates. This is truly a world where the golden consumer triangle applies:

Cost - Time - Quality

You can influence two of the legs of the triangle, but never all three. Want low cost quickly? Then you get a OTS tune and the quality suffers. Want the best quality and want to save money? Then the tuner will take care of you when he/she has time and your turnaround time will suffer. Want the best map tomorrow? Then you'll have to pay for the tuner to clear their calendar and devote all their time to you.

Keep this in mind when working with and evaluating a tuner.
Again folks, I am reporting my experience. At no time did I ask for quick turnaround. Quality itself is expected and there is no negotiating on that. Cost is irrelevant. Tuners charge whatever, however they want and you either accept or you don't have budget. So that's irrelevant too.

Now if anyone else comes in to give obvious comments about how one should "be sure to be have clear goals for the tuner to tune".... my head is going to explode.

1. Even before tuning, all mods were explained in detail and the goal was explained:
"I have Dinan S3 under warranty for a few years, warranty is out and I heard that Dinan S3 is not that powerful so I am interested in using you to see how much more power than Dinan we can get out of this engine since it is out of warranty. I have also upgraded inlets and outlets so can you also take this into account when tuning? I also have upgraded to 3.5 tMap."

That is a summary of my talks before tuning. Now... I did NOT mention that under Wedge, my transmission went kablooey and thus I had to replace with an upgraded Propulsive Dynamics unit, which seems to be taking the tuning sessions just fine. I looked at a few Wedge logs and saw under stock tranny there were times when there was over 650nm torque... but alas, I cannot blame Wedge for the tranny failure since the original had 70K on it. Regardless, it was the daily driving or undrivability of Wedge that caused me to completely stop revisions after 12 tries. I simply did not want to risk any damage to my newly replaced engine.

And after 12 revisions... not really feeling safe with Wedge, I switched to Twisted, which feels much more smooth and less clunky but had comparable power to Dinan s3... I explained the entire process of Wedge to Twisted and he made the necessary adjustments as he saw fit. Now there is a new map that seems to be feeling very smooth and has a bit more power so I think he is make the adjustments as per my goals. I think after one or maybe two more maps, it will be locked down - smooth, controlled and more power than Dinan.
 
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cloud9blue

Sergeant
Oct 17, 2017
253
That is a summary of my talks before tuning. Now... I did NOT mention that under Wedge, my transmission went kablooey and thus I had to replace with an upgraded Propulsive Dynamics unit, which seems to be taking the tuning sessions just fine. I looked at a few Wedge logs and saw under stock tranny there were times when there was over 650nm torque... but alas, I cannot blame Wedge for the tranny failure since the original had 70K on it. Regardless, it was the daily driving or undrivability of Wedge that caused me to completely stop revisions after 12 tries. I simply did not want to risk any damage to my newly replaced engine.
Aint the first time the Wedge tune caused a hardware failure. I remembered that one time I tried to get a mild tune from him, and he gave one that has 15 degree timing advance on it, lol. I bet the guy's approach to tuning is just crank up the boost and timing until engine starts to knock. I rather have those jokers at Frankenturbo tune my car instead...

To people that think he knows what he is doing because of the OTS tunes on MHD... yeah no, I can make a few changes (load request, timing, and afr target) in Tuner pro too and call it my own "tune", does it mean I really know what I am doing? No...
 

DennisKing

Specialist
Nov 5, 2016
94
Portland, OR
So I've got a question, since you aren't running upgraded turbos, have you tried just running the OTS maps on MHD by itself? The Stage 2+ with stock turbos sounds like it's really all you need. Wedge makes all the OTS maps for MHD in the latest release and if there were issues with those tunes, the powers that be and the users would have a problem.
- no disrespect to cloudblue's opinion since I was typing this as he was posting his own opinion. We don't have to agree and that's okay.

My other question would be, did you ask for some type of high output "Kill Tune" for your car that is running stock turbos?

The reason I ask, is that Wedge, V8Bait, and Twisted have numerous tunes under their belts for numerous clients and if 2/3 of the software tuners that consequently make up probably 2/3 of the custom tunes running in N54 cars are making software that isn't working in your particular car, you may have to look at starting from square one and revisiting little details.
 
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