VTT / Precision Raceworks Coil install / Results thread

doublespaces

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Oh lord, if this thread teaches us anything I've learned that tech articles written by the community are the most controversial even when results are pretty cut and dry.

I'm sure there will be plenty of entertaining examples. This is hardly a tech article, think more along the lines of their wgdc pieces. Have you read that? I've also got other people, engineers, who are willing to provide automotive insight into things like the B58.
 

08_335i

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I have to admit, You've changed a lot Tony. For the better. Don't understand why anyone would argue with these results. Peopel also need to understand, Tony's car isn't a stock N54. It has head work, upgraded intake, GC's, pushing it balls to the walls 24\7, etc. Your gains, will most likely not be as great as his unless you're already pushing high power too. What this DOES PROVE is how shitty our stock ignition system is, and how much we all need this upgrade. Why would he screw with data on a product that isn't even his or his to sell?
 

doublespaces

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Let's go back to the original topic if possible.

My question, is how much room for optimization if any in the dwell settings etc?
 
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Bmwfixerguy1

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I saw on the other forum people asking questions about boost etc. Yes these power gains are due a couple things. More boost being made, quicker, and boost being increased. This power is not just from added spark, but that is the benefits of the coils. With stock coils the turbos were slower to spool consistently, and made less boost in that area, so the hotter spark is spooling the turbos quicker, and in turn making more boost in that area, bringing the power up.

We will only be answering questions on these results on this forum, in this thread. The other forum owner decided its ok to steal content from other forums he bashes, and post that content without our permission. Seriously ridiculous

Some people love you some people hate you.. I gotta say I respect you.. Yours always working and in the end always seem to do what's right.. I dig that dude!
 
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Some people love you some people hate you.. I gotta say I respect you.. Yours always working and in the end always seem to do what's right.. I dig that dude!
Thank you sir! We work hard to bring new advances to all the platforms we work on. We just happen to like the N54 for the best so we push to bring it to new heights!
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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Thank you sir! We work hard to bring new advances to all the platforms we work on. We just happen to like the N54 for the best so we push to bring it to new heights!
Plus I found out you use to skate.. Kick push homey

I asked earlier about your crankcase vent system.. Are you using the vacuum pump for crank case venting?
 
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@V8bait this is my favorite part. So at 3300 the stock coils on the 180 map made 20.6PSI of boost, the PR coils made 21.1PSI of boost for a whopping boost increase of drum roll please. .5PSI. So with that huge boost increase, the new coils made 107WTQ more, and 58WHP more. Seriously sign me up for turbos that make 100WTQ, and 60WHP on .5 a psi of boost...:) Maybe I should be using these results to sell turbos, not coils! :grimacing:

3318RPM PR VS Stock.jpg
Stock Coils boost.jpg
PR Coils boost.jpg
 
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I'm a little new in this platform, and after finding four unique forums that cover the car I just bought I stopped looking. There's only so much time in day. I don't know all the politics and don't care. Since this is Tony's thread and his testing on his car he can take it where he wants. I have noticed Tony is running out of places he will post, and I hope he will always have a voice because the information and things VTTO builds, sales, and just shares are golden. Also some people need to realize that just because someone is on the leading edge of something doesn't mean they have all the answers, and if they can't give you all the answers that doesn't mean they are lying or hiding something. If you think they are then prove it, especially when the person being questioned has a history of not handling perceived criticism very well. I've seen this scenario many times over the years. Some racers who post a lot are very fast and really don't know exactly why, and I'm not claiming that anyone here is dumb just that some should relax and strive for answers instead of expecting one person to be able to spoon feed everything to them. Nobody has all the answers, but some have a ton of knowledge and results and share the answers they do have, for that I am very thankful. This saves me a lot of time. So thanks to Tony and Chris for that.

So anyways here's something I wrote last night I will re-post here as well. I didn't steal this from BB. I wrote it, so here's a plausible explanation for some of the low end gains besides just complete combustion (as imagined by me).

I was reading a thread at lunch yesterday and thinking about this. Here's what I came up with that seems interesting. First I must admit I was amazed when I learned that the N54 and several other new direct injection turbo platforms like Ecoboost, and Skyactive did not need nor utilize a Mass Airflow Sensor to directly measure the volume of air the engine is consuming at any given moment. These new wide-band Oxygen sensors must be really fast and accurate, so much so that the fuel injection can just rely on much simpler sensors like Manifold Air Pressure and temperature compared to tables such as VE and then make all corrections after the combustion event via the wide-band reading. And then we can just go about doubling boost and changing everything such as cams and intercooler and the damn thing still works, even responds to this. For someone who graduated from programmed fuel injection with O2 correction to Mass Air this step form Mass Air to programmed with wide-band correction seems backwards. That it works so well blows my mind. But this causes one to re-think things a bit. With a MAF system at WOT fuel is added based on the load calculations and O2's are largely ignored. It's programmed to provide a rich mixture to provide enough fuel to easily light and cool down the combustion chamber to prevent pre-ignition, detonation, and lean mixtures. But if there are any misfires at WOT that un-burned Oxygen just passes by the O2 sensor, lowering the voltage by some amount but effecting nothing related to air/fuel ratios. But on this system, the N54 and others like it, that un-burned Oxygen will have some effect on the wide-band reading that could effect the immediate air/fuel ratio. Now A/F sensors do detect rich mixtures, so are they able to process the un-burned HC's at the same time and as effectively as the Oxygen? Good question and I'll have to go read up. Not many of the classes I go to have instructors that think about this much less try to incorporate these hypothetical's into the courses. Most times my questions make them think and realize things they hadn't considered. But what I'm trying to say is this. If you have a considerable amount of misfires under WOT say 5-10% when everything else is optimized or 30% if you run stock gaps. Therefore you have significant amounts of O2 and HC's going past the sensors. How does this effect the fuel injection's perceived A/F Ratio and thereby it's corrective action to adjust said A/F ratio? If the raw O2 has it's way the A/F sensors are going to report this and the DME (in the BMW case) is going to command more fuel to try and bring the ratio back into target numbers. This extra fuel above what is actually optimum for max power will therefore reduce power. So if this is happening, and one comes along and upgrades the ignition system to the point that these misfires are eliminated now all A/F feedback suddenly becomes a lot more accurate. So in this scenario fuel would be reduced because it's no long trying to cover raw O2 in the exhaust. Overall combustion heat, and therefore combustion pressure goes up again. This again drives the turbo turbine harder still, again more power from more power. Like Tony said, one efficient engine. The better it's working the better it works, sounds corny but that's how I view it.

Now I may be a little off here, I'm not exactly sure how these wide-bands will read the results of mis-fires, which if any way the readings will be a skewed. I'm a little biased because for years, well decades now, O2 sensors just reacted to Oxygen and had no clue about the Hydro Carbons bumping into them. So I tend to think readings will lean out. So while I fully comprehend that wide-bands are excellent at processing the exact ratio of com-busted air and fuel by-products, I reserve that they may no be so good at raw air and fuel thrown into the mix. So if there's someone on here who knows about this better than I do yet please do tell. I'm just trying to explain this recent dynamometer test to myself as well as anyone else like you guys doing the same. With my theory the A/F graphs may look only slightly changed, but they may actually be a lot more accurate than before.

Vernon
 

Jake@MHD

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expecting one person to be able to spoon feed everything to them

Welcome to the N54 platform :)

These new wide-band Oxygen sensors must be really fast and accurate, so much so that the fuel injection can just rely on much simpler sensors like Manifold Air Pressure and temperature compared to tables such as VE and then make all corrections after the combustion event via the wide-band reading.

Ehh, not really. The base fueling model is a very complex, multi node neural network that has many many combinations, combined with an "operating mode" matrix on top of that. The result of this, plus a well tuned fuel scalar will get you close to target AFR even if the car pops into open loop. You can see exactly how much work the wide-band lambda feedback loop is doing via STFT and learned (LTFT).
 
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TWilly

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Great review! Sucks I just bought brand new bosh coils last month or I def would of went this way.
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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Ok, at 1500rpm it made 50 more hp...50. if the coils can't provide a full burn at 1500rpm when they can easily be fully saturated then how the hell can they at 6k rpm where the stock and pr coils made nearly the same power.

I'm not questioning the "more boost" i know it made more boost, I knew as soon as I looked at the graph it made more boost, I'm questioning the why was "it made more boost faster" not anywhere in the discussion until the issue was pressed.

Did you guys log boost via the dynojet?
Ok, at 1500rpm it made 50 more hp...50. if the coils can't provide a full burn at 1500rpm when they can easily be fully saturated then how the hell can they at 6k rpm where the stock and pr coils made nearly the same power.

I'm not questioning the "more boost" i know it made more boost, I knew as soon as I looked at the graph it made more boost, I'm questioning the why was "it made more boost faster" not anywhere in the discussion until the issue was pressed.

Did you guys log boost via the dynojet?

I hate to be the one to "spark" this back up again

You are saying if ok at 1500 you made 50 more hp and assuming that the ignition system should be in the clear correct? I'm sorry but that's exactly where you would be lacking in such a high gear high load situation.. That's not a low load situation!!! When I need to reset a misfire or confirm a bad coil that's the exact condition I set it in! That's exactly to the T when a coil will fall flat on its face!!! Forget about the Theory this is real world how it works lol.
 

Notmpwr

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I hate to be the one to "spark" this back up again

You are saying if ok at 1500 you made 50 more hp and assuming that the ignition system should be in the clear correct? I'm sorry but that's exactly where you would be lacking in such a high gear high load situation.. That's not a low load situation!!! When I need to reset a misfire or confirm a bad coil that's the exact condition I set it in! That's exactly to the T when a coil will fall flat on its face!!! Forget about the Theory this is real world how it works lol.

I know exactly about real world conditions, I experience them on a daily basis with the dyno. If you have junk coils then yeah you might have issues. Good condition n54 coils aren't junk, they aren't great but not horrible.

The cylinder pressure is extremely low at that rpm, it may seem like a "high load" but from a cylinder pressure standpoint it's not.
 

Notmpwr

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And unless the dyno has an Eddy brake, there is no where near the load on the car in 4th as there would be in a real world scenario.

Like I stated earlier, I use a dyno on a daily basis, I have seen a whole lot of different stuff on the dyno and how those things effect the results.

I'm doing some ign1a coils and I'll see if I can replicate the gains that tony saw.
 

Bmwfixerguy1

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I know exactly about real world conditions, I experience them on a daily basis with the dyno. If you have junk coils then yeah you might have issues. Good condition n54 coils aren't junk, they aren't great but not horrible.

The cylinder pressure is extremely low at that rpm, it may seem like a "high load" but from a cylinder pressure standpoint it's not.

I'd be bullshiting out my ass if I tried to pretend I knew what cylinder pressures actually were lol..
And I know some of the cars you described you were testing on and and once huge factor they are lack is a dual vanos system which simple and put allows you to alter over lap and alter cylinder pressure.. Maybe that was a huge factor.. Idk but you keep comparing lots of apples and cumquats!
You are absolutely with out a doubt an experienced craftsman! I think you would be a lot more satisfied take the variable that our community is telling you that the vtt guys wouldn't do what you think and put your knowledge to trying and figuring out what happened :)

I'd tell you to take your next turbo E85 car you have on the dyno and open the gap 30 thou over optimum and do back to back pulls and tell me the difference in torque... But then I'd be breaking my own apples to apples rules and that's the ugly beauty of this.. Its Tony's car and non of us till now I think really knew how much his car needed this including him lol, this is a new territory for all of us with this platform.. Its just too simple an engine makes the most power from what it needs most, why are we not surprised when a car makes 30whp on down pipes and 2whp on exhaust systems? Are downpipes/cats are extremely restricted and are exhaust is not.. But that's not a surprise anymore.. It was 10 years ago though lol
I will tell you first hand that I replace more coils in a day than anything else on a BMW car!
 

Notmpwr

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Cylinder pressure is extremely low at that rpm?

Compared to the 3k plus range especially when any pressure over 100kpa is introduced.

I'd be bullshiting out my ass if I tried to pretend I knew what cylinder pressures actually were lol..
And I know some of the cars you described you were testing on and and once huge factor they are lack is a dual vanos system which simple and put allows you to alter over lap and alter cylinder pressure.. Maybe that was a huge factor.. Idk but you keep comparing lots of apples and cumquats!
You are absolutely with out a doubt an experienced craftsman! I think you would be a lot more satisfied take the variable that our community is telling you that the vtt guys wouldn't do what you think and put your knowledge to trying and figuring out what happened :)

I'd tell you to take your next turbo E85 car you have on the dyno and open the gap 30 thou over optimum and do back to back pulls and tell me the difference in torque... But then I'd be breaking my own apples to apples rules and that's the ugly beauty of this.. Its Tony's car and non of us till now I think really knew how much his car needed this including him lol, this is a new territory for all of us with this platform.. Its just too simple an engine makes the most power from what it needs most, why are we not surprised when a car makes 30whp on down pipes and 2whp on exhaust systems? Are downpipes/cats are extremely restricted and are exhaust is not.. But that's not a surprise anymore.. It was 10 years ago though lol
I will tell you first hand that I replace more coils in a day than anything else on a BMW car!


Ok, I'll have one on the dyno Monday, I'll gap the plugs up and down and report my findings. Unfortunately it's a auto car with a big stall and a stick car would be much better determination.

And the downpipe thing? I'm not surprised at all where downpipes make power, stock cats are restrictive, they make more power at more rpm because the exhaust back pressure is lower. They aren't doing much if any down low.

Like I said I'll have some ign1a's on a car soon and I'll do some testing, I should see near the same result in the 1-2.5k range.

I hope I do, that would be awesome to make that much more power under the curve from an ignition upgrade.
 
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The Convert

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I'd be bullshiting out my ass if I tried to pretend I knew what cylinder pressures actually were lol..
And I know some of the cars you described you were testing on and and once huge factor they are lack is a dual vanos system which simple and put allows you to alter over lap and alter cylinder pressure.. Maybe that was a huge factor.. Idk but you keep comparing lots of apples and cumquats!
You are absolutely with out a doubt an experienced craftsman! I think you would be a lot more satisfied take the variable that our community is telling you that the vtt guys wouldn't do what you think and put your knowledge to trying and figuring out what happened :)

I'd tell you to take your next turbo E85 car you have on the dyno and open the gap 30 thou over optimum and do back to back pulls and tell me the difference in torque... But then I'd be breaking my own apples to apples rules and that's the ugly beauty of this.. Its Tony's car and non of us till now I think really knew how much his car needed this including him lol, this is a new territory for all of us with this platform.. Its just too simple an engine makes the most power from what it needs most, why are we not surprised when a car makes 30whp on down pipes and 2whp on exhaust systems? Are downpipes/cats are extremely restricted and are exhaust is not.. But that's not a surprise anymore.. It was 10 years ago though lol
I will tell you first hand that I replace more coils in a day than anything else on a BMW car!

Please proof read before hitting that "post reply" button.
 
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