What is the highest HP from all the hybrid turbos?

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Lieutenant
Free Vendor
Dec 7, 2016
626
St. Louis, MO USA
Yes, VTT did a recall campaign. But so has BMW, several times. Does that make all BMWs from 06-11 junk? I would hardly think so.
Recall campaign? Lol. More like sweep it under the rug, just like a thread last night about yet another GC 2.0 failure. The only reason they owned up to that GC 1.0 problem is because we identified it to the public, with the silver bullet of Texts from Chris admitting to it. Still, there was no formal recall. This was all well documented on bummerboost here:

For the record they are still bobbing and weaving around the current GC 2.0 debacle, and not sure if Chris will be putting anything about that in texts anymore...

Also, I've heard of plenty of RB turbo failures in the FB groups, one person of which has gone through 3 sets of Next Gens(?) in a year and had warranty claim issues just as bad or worse than you've heard from the other vendors.
We began production RB Next Gens 9/2015, literally 200+ of sets were sold over 3.5 years, and we have had maybe 4 failures TOTAL on them- all self inflicted in on way or the other. Never one time have we seen a set be rebuilt more than once, nor has there been any warranty issues. Out of the ~4 that have came back, one just last week, from early 2016, and even they were fine until the first owner went ST then installed on another car that was riddled with problems and somehow one snapped a shaft (installer suspected collapsed rear inlet).

If you want to get a complete forthright no exceptions update on what we see come back, you can simply get a month by month play by play here:

The short version is that we actively send about 15 new orders on average per month, year after year, since early 2010. Yes, over a full decade now. And of those and including our entire shipment portfolio since we see about 0-1 set per month come back.

And while we are sure you will find some poor reviews, over a full decade of shipments, we certainly have NEVER once had any thread pulled down or even insinuated in the slightest that it be pulled down... rest assured this is NOT the norm for any other vendor. I guess you can say it is just rolled up into our very poor marketing strategy. Anyway what is also not the norm is 10 full years of N54 product shipments, whereas most of the competition started around late 2015/early 2016... and 10 years of shipments vs. 4 years of shipments is a pretty damn big difference in product accountability.

Rob
 
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Lieutenant
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Dec 7, 2016
626
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PS and on topic to the thread- will make another post later identifying why some of these hybrids (or rather cast twins) tend to make some big power. Unfortunately the main reason they do (or "have") is also their achilles heal.

For several years now, when it comes to hybrids anyway, we have suggested them to make no more than 600whp... as that is when the turbine housings tend to give way to extensive back pressure not worth the risk of the engine and/or turbos. Once again, poor marketing, but forthright nonetheless.

Rob
 

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800HP Club (N54)
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Oct 24, 2016
780
Scottsdale, AZ
Outside of VTT shop car(s?), highest number is 724 for twins going to MMP 1ks?
We would hardly call Terrys 135 a VTT shop car which made a consistent 760WHP. If we are talking our shop car we got well over 800WHP on GC's consistently. All Terry's car would have needed to be close to the same would have been a ported head. S55 GC's use the same CHRA's as our N54 GC's, and they made 635WHP on 93 only and will top 800WHP on a stock motor if pushed. The platform dictates a lot of power potential on the hybrids, as S55 GC's are running 9 sec passes stock motor. As for the rest of the backbiting in this thread, same stuff, same people, different day. We keep our heads down and continue to produce, and sell high-quality products across multiple platforms. As always direct questions email me.

Chris
VTT Shop Car Vs Terrys GCs.jpg
 
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Panzerfaust

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Jul 3, 2018
544
Chicago
My apologies @[email protected] , they were not Next Gens but Stealths apparently - I will admit when it comes to lack of knowledge on N54 turbos, I fall into that category for your naming scheme.

Regardless of when you originally started building turbos, failures are failures. You're quick to point your finger at every other N54 vendor even if they arent advertising turbos whenever a potential issue rises, but why cant other vendors get the same courtesy you give yourself? Yes some of the GC 1.0s were shitty. But AFAIK VTT replaced them for anyone who contacted them, one "famous" case included the super villain Tony even replacing a set that was over a year out of warranty and not the original purchaser, with one email. If you helped VTT decide to recall certain setups, props to you, but in the end they are still the ones who did it.

As for your RB turbos that we were discussing, I'll attach pictures so I dont misquote anything again. I'm going to exclude one screenshot where he talks about the warranty troubles because I don't necessarily blame you for making him pay for his own labor getting them pulled to be inspected, although he did also claim some other things about you - however theres no photographic proof of that so I'll stick to these.
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Please note that he mentioned that he also was running the RB external PCV, so I dont think excess vacuum was an issue and you'd likely agree. There's another post of his that I couldn't find where he mentioned the length of time for each failure, where the second set only lasted ~230 miles, and the third and final set he installed earlier this year. I'm sure you know about all of this, I'm not sure if you're advertising it in your 0% failure thread or not (I'm not a bummerboost fan due to vendors being able to pay for their opinions to become facts) and I'm not sure what you'll publicly say the cause of failure is on them, I'm just posting what I've seen in the last two days about 3 sets of RBs going bad on a build that certainly didnt have any install errors.


That is why I think MMP and VTT are the way to go if you want to run high HP and have longevity. Even with his built engine and ported head I believe he was stuck around 630whp with the RBs.
 

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Lieutenant
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Dec 7, 2016
626
St. Louis, MO USA
My apologies @[email protected] , they were not Next Gens but Stealths apparently - I will admit when it comes to lack of knowledge on N54 turbos, I fall into that category for your naming scheme.

Regardless of when you originally started building turbos, failures are failures. You're quick to point your finger at every other N54 vendor even if they arent advertising turbos whenever a potential issue rises, but why cant other vendors get the same courtesy you give yourself? Yes some of the GC 1.0s were shitty. But AFAIK VTT replaced them for anyone who contacted them, one "famous" case included the super villain Tony even replacing a set that was over a year out of warranty and not the original purchaser, with one email. If you helped VTT decide to recall certain setups, props to you, but in the end they are still the ones who did it.

As for your RB turbos that we were discussing, I'll attach pictures so I dont misquote anything again. I'm going to exclude one screenshot where he talks about the warranty troubles because I don't necessarily blame you for making him pay for his own labor getting them pulled to be inspected, although he did also claim some other things about you - however theres no photographic proof of that so I'll stick to these.View attachment 27553View attachment 27554View attachment 27555View attachment 27556View attachment 27557 Please note that he mentioned that he also was running the RB external PCV, so I dont think excess vacuum was an issue and you'd likely agree. There's another post of his that I couldn't find where he mentioned the length of time for each failure, where the second set only lasted ~230 miles, and the third and final set he installed earlier this year. I'm sure you know about all of this, I'm not sure if you're advertising it in your 0% failure thread or not (I'm not a bummerboost fan due to vendors being able to pay for their opinions to become facts) and I'm not sure what you'll publicly say the cause of failure is on them, I'm just posting what I've seen in the last two days about 3 sets of RBs going bad on a build that certainly didnt have any install errors.


That is why I think MMP and VTT are the way to go if you want to run high HP and have longevity. Even with his built engine and ported head I believe he was stuck around 630whp with the RBs.
You would think that with your tremendous internet prowess, combined with your infinite N54 platform wisdom especially in turbocharging, that you and your spoolstreet RB hater trifecta could do at least a little better than a product sold in 2015. FWIW we also discontinued this product for new sales in early 2016, and found the resolve for them in servicing by 1/1/2017 yet still never put them back into production because as we had mentioned above we do not feel wheels rated for north of 600whp is in anyones best interest when said and done (engine and/or turbos are at large stake)- at least not without a full cast solution that is actually designed properly (and we have yet to see one that fits all criteria for that).

If you want a breakdown on the exact Adam G. debacle, as broken down to your buddy a couple weeks ago, you can see that here:
(The funny thing is we've since been told he even lost an engine too throughout these ordeals.)

But anyway let's ignore the real time and ever-ongoing current events, and perhaps we can revisit this one again in a few weeks/months/years as it seems to be a real sticker.

Thanks,
Rob
 
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Panzerfaust

Lieutenant
Jul 3, 2018
544
Chicago
You would think that with your tremendous internet prowess, combined with your infinite N54 platform wisdom especially in turbocharging, that you and your spoolstreet RB hater trifecta could do at least a little better than a product sold in 2015. FWIW we also discontinued this product for new sales in early 2016, and found the resolve for them in servicing by 1/1/2017 yet still never put them back into production because as we had mentioned above we do not feel wheels rated for north of 600whp is in anyones best interest when said and done (engine and/or turbos are at large stake)- at least not without a full cast solution that is actually designed properly (and we have yet to see one that fits all criteria for that).

If you want a breakdown on the exact Adam G. debacle, as broken down to your buddy a couple weeks ago, you can see that here:
(The funny thing is we've since been told he even lost an engine too throughout these ordeals.)

But anyway let's ignore the real time and ever-ongoing current events, and perhaps we can revisit this one again in a few weeks/months/years as it seems to be a real sticker.

Thanks,
Rob
The original turbos came out in 2015, yes. But he said he had since gotten two replacements from you, one being either this year or last - did you give him another Stealth or a different turbo? Or just replace a wheel and seals and send back the same unit two times after the initial failure?

Regardless of your name calling and holier-than-all-thou attitude, the point is your turbos fail too (just as *any* can, including PTE, BW, etc) yet you're "sweeping it under the rug" and again, giving yourself a courtesy you will never extend to others by saying "it was an old product, not what I'm doing now" which covers both of my points in that post.

As for twins not being good for above 600whp, I dont see how that could be a logical line of thinking at all especially coming from a turbo vendor. You just prefer your products to be as OE-like as possible. That's okay. But there are others who do other things and do them better than you have so far. Dont get it twisted, theres no "RB hate" going on here, and none from my direction regarding the company at all. I've recommended your external PCV system to several people. I'm just not a huge fan of the man behind the glowing green head and curtain thinking that he is as big as the projection he uses.
 
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fmorelli

Colonel
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Aug 11, 2017
2,323
Virginia
Can we please dial back in all the "wisdom" on he said she said reliability stuff? This was an interesting thread until the group devolved it. Thanks guys!

Filippo
 
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martymil

Lieutenant
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Sep 6, 2017
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Down Under
I've been running the gc2.0 for close to a year and already outlasted both sets of my previous ones combined and I don't even have the latest ones, they are running around 6 to 7 psi
more boost aswell.

The turbos have been running strong without a single issue and I can't see myself running anything else.

I'm running only on 93 and its more that enough power for the street to practice rear end figure skating.
 
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Lieutenant
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Dec 7, 2016
626
St. Louis, MO USA
The original turbos came out in 2015, yes. But he said he had since gotten two replacements from you, one being either this year or last - did you give him another Stealth or a different turbo? Or just replace a wheel and seals and send back the same unit two times after the initial failure?

Regardless of your name calling and holier-than-all-thou attitude, the point is your turbos fail too (just as *any* can, including PTE, BW, etc) yet you're "sweeping it under the rug" and again, giving yourself a courtesy you will never extend to others by saying "it was an old product, not what I'm doing now" which covers both of my points in that post.

As for twins not being good for above 600whp, I dont see how that could be a logical line of thinking at all especially coming from a turbo vendor. You just prefer your products to be as OE-like as possible. That's okay. But there are others who do other things and do them better than you have so far. Dont get it twisted, theres no "RB hate" going on here, and none from my direction regarding the company at all. I've recommended your external PCV system to several people. I'm just not a huge fan of the man behind the glowing green head and curtain thinking that he is as big as the projection he uses.
There is a very detailed link you were provided above (post #72), giving all timelines... you know part of the forthright process. A quick breakdown is that we have not heard from him in over 2 years now, so all seems to be well. If things become unwell, they of course would be noted in the turbo reliability thread and he would become the 0-1 setups we see back on a monthly basis. Now we are sure if he wants to be a knucklehead, and run around town blowing engines and/or running 35psi, the turbos themselves would be at stake too. This goes for anyone. This whole community is so oblivious to the reality of what is out there, for example the "big" numbers that have been made and used for marketing- at least up until about a year or so ago- have all resulted in blown engines and/or turbos within moments to days. While the dyno slip looks nice, the ultimate outcome is certainly not worth it to the common consumer looking for some bigger power. Yet another reason for the past several years, the moment a customer says "I wanna make 650+whp", it is a surefire and quick response from us of "Go look into a ST kit". Perhaps that will change at some point and some solid cast options will present themselves (ie. the Hydras are a massive step in the right direction), but at this time all we see are even modern cast failures and immediate resales after low mile rebuilds. And this is not just a single case from yesteryears, but lots of them from yesterweeks. Open the eyes over there and you will certainly see some glowing green heads elsewhere.

Thanks,
Rob
 
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Panzerfaust

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Jul 3, 2018
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Can we please dial back in all the "wisdom" on he said she said reliability stuff? This was an interesting thread until the group devolved it. Thanks guys!

Filippo
My apologies Fillipo, my original intention was simply to state my opinion and offer the reason why I thought so but that was questioned and I can admit I may have fed into the fire a little here.

I still think for the most part any modern twin ("hybrid" or fully cast, no-OEM parts) setup will last a long time with the right supporting mods and proper tuning, some can just handle higher flow and PSI than others by design. Other than that, if you're not running *everything* required (properly sized upgraded inlets & outlets, no closed air box, new oil drains, proper install etc) and/or have your turbo spinning right at or past its efficiency range then any turbo will see a shorter life span regardless of manufacturer. Whether its MMP, Pure, RB, VTT or Hydra the proper equipment and tune is what matters most when factoring in reliability. Yes those 3 sets of RBs obviously suffered catastrophic failures, but I've also never heard of anyone else attempting to run RB or really any other stock frame turbos at 30psi which surely none are made for. 600, 630, 650 are all pretty damn nice WHP numbers and there's plenty of turbos capable of that but when I think "high HP" on the N54 I think 700+, and I dont think it's safe nor reliable to push any stock frame turbo that far. A larger A/R housing to go with those upgraded wheel sizes and preferably a better exhaust manifold is surely better suited for keeping backpressure levels and over spinning at bay if you're trying to hit that magic lucky number or higher.
 

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Lieutenant
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My apologies Fillipo, my original intention was simply to state my opinion and offer the reason why I thought so but that was questioned and I can admit I may have fed into the fire a little here.

I still think for the most part any modern twin ("hybrid" or fully cast, no-OEM parts) setup will last a long time with the right supporting mods and proper tuning, some can just handle higher flow and PSI than others by design. Other than that, if you're not running *everything* required (properly sized upgraded inlets & outlets, no closed air box, new oil drains, proper install etc) and/or have your turbo spinning right at or past its efficiency range then any turbo will see a shorter life span regardless of manufacturer. Whether its MMP, Pure, RB, VTT or Hydra the proper equipment and tune is what matters most when factoring in reliability. Yes those 3 sets of RBs obviously suffered catastrophic failures, but I've also never heard of anyone else attempting to run RB or really any other stock frame turbos at 30psi which surely none are made for. 600, 630, 650 are all pretty damn nice WHP numbers and there's plenty of turbos capable of that but when I think "high HP" on the N54 I think 700+, and I dont think it's safe nor reliable to push any stock frame turbo that far. A larger A/R housing to go with those upgraded wheel sizes and preferably a better exhaust manifold is surely better suited for keeping backpressure levels and over spinning at bay if you're trying to hit that magic lucky number or higher.
Good post sir and very much agree. You see these things I say are based on our own experiences and things we see others doing the same later down the road. A go first and hit the wall first if you will. Some of these experiences were intended to be platform advancements for the time, but later turn out to be failures overall. Some of these same failures were later copied by competitors, who eventually met the same fates, and whom mostly still still sell them today without fully addressing the real reasons of why they are still failing. As such our reliability thread entails these things we've learned, spread across our product portfolio, over the past several years (and certainly NOT all eternity).

Once upon a time we were the first ones to start making "Stage 3 Type" N54 turbos, dub'd the Super RB EVO's in later 2014, and began shipping them production early 2015. This was documented mostly here:
With these setups we made full plumbing solutions, and shoehorned the largest wheels possible into the housings (literally crammed them in, regretfully). As we have full machining facilities and didn't require casting, it was easiest to be the first to draw here. Keep in mind this was amidst a time of heavy platform competition, mainly for power, so running in that direction was the first priority and there were a LOT of supporters pushing for it as well. Everyone wanted that dyno sheet for sure, the power hungry N54 enthusiasts were thriving and were absolutely elated with what was happening.

Anyway fast forward about a year or so and we were beginning to see very high fallout from these breeds, including the Super RB Stealths (which from a wheel perspective were identical). Unfortunately these issues don't usually just sprout up overnight, while some can take months others may take years. This is where we learned that if you start seeing ANY failures in under 9 months as a manufacturer, it is time to really evaluate and/or reconsider the product. Or better yet, beta test it, as we did heavily with our RB Twos (which have been 100% perfection to date nearly 2 years later). Eventually when you start seeing a common failure mode, you know it is time to do something which in our case was to pull the plug on new sales and try our best to remedy what is out there via servicing.

As you can see in the thread above, right around a year later, there were no real updates thereafter. Well that is why, we had no interest in selling any more of them. Interestingly enough and right about the time we pulled the plug, a new competitor pulled up with the idea of copying the exact same concept- the new platform "Stage 3's" if you will. So yes it was fun sitting back and watching that go basically in the same direction. And while they also performed pretty decently, just the same the reliability and engine distresses really was not worth it when said and done. History had repeated itself.

Alongside that was a new cast offering, from Zage in Taiwan, which looked like a great concept being fully cast and "redesigned from the ground up". Unfortunately it took a while for us to get our hands on a set, but at the same time once we did we found they were not really much of an improvement... and had the same exact "shoehorned" effect of too large of the wheel for the housing. The frame for the R (for Radius) is exactly the same as OE and the A (for A) is only marginally larger, worse yet the material was still not there for a proper diffuser to be machined. The only prop it had was a larger collector, which although is a plus it would be much more meaningful if the housing had more flow potential. In short, another bust and not much value added IMO, and we obviously were not interested in buying into this one. The writing was on the wall history would yet again repeat itself. It did and continues to do so.

Anyway more cast stuff is on the horizon and some already shipping, there is no doubt if done right it is the way to go for those chasing a reliable 600+whp on twins. Time will tell but for years this platform has been striving for big power out of twins and suffering tremendously in the process as things simply had not been done correctly yet. Things need to be learned from the mistakes of the past, however IMO if things aren't right it is time as a vendor to pull the plug until they are corrected. Some vendors are not able to do this it seems, and the N54 platform twin big power chasers continue to suffer in the process.

The Hydra housings are the first released cast N54 product that we have seen that 100% has a larger frame (R= Raduis) and nozzle area (A= Area). For this reason we feel that they were going to be the first ones to really see some significant gains, especially on the N53 headed setups with the full manifold. IMO a full sized collector is going to be ideal for these housings, as they have the ability to MOVE the air. Remember making power is not about PSI, it is about AIRFLOW. PSI is simply the measurement of restriction of the hot side, the idea is to move as MUCH airflow through this system at the lowest possible PSI to make the power- yet retain tolerable turbo response. At the end of the day more PSI is going to lead to more Backpressure, and excess Backpressure is the ultimate killer of turbos and engines.

Thanks,
Rob
 
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Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,195
Boston
We would hardly call Terrys 135 a VTT shop car.
Hardly? LOL. Dude, it's basically a VTT shop car. If you don't want to call it that call it a BMS/VTT shop car. VTT engine, VTT crank cap, VTT intake, VTT outlet, VTT crank case, VTT custom tune, VTT dyno, and VTT turbos right? BMS backend flash and JB4 and other BMS parts on that car cost next to nothing compared to the VTT parts. It was dropped off at VTT and left making those numbers. Just call a spade a spade. Saying it is hardly a shop car is a joke.

Either way, again, no one seems to be able to make the numbers the vendors can on their on their own in house dynos hence why everyone throws out those numbers if they want to be realistic about what they will put down, real world numbers.

Vendors putting down numbers the rest of the community cannot is not unique to this platform ;)


edit: That MMP 745 is impressive! I'm guessing that is the MMP Gen1s right? Don't the cast Gen 2s have smaller wheels? Do they still sell the Gen 1s?
 
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Twisted Tuning

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Oct 25, 2016
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Hardly? LOL. Dude, it's basically a VTT shop car. If you don't want to call it that call it a BMS/VTT shop car. VTT engine, VTT crank cap, VTT intake, VTT outlet, VTT crank case, and VTT turbos right? BMS backend flash and JB4 and other BMS parts on that car cost next to nothing compared to the VTT parts. It was dropped off at VTT and left making those numbers. Just call a spade a spade. Saying it is hardly a shop car is a joke.

Either way, again, no one seems to be able to make the numbers the vendors can on their on their own in house dynos hence why everyone throws out those numbers if they want to be realistic about what they will put down, real world numbers.

Vendors putting down numbers the rest of the community cannot is not unique to this platform ;)


edit: That MMP 745 is impressive! I'm guessing that is the MMP Gen1s right? Don't the cast Gen 2s have smaller wheels? Do they still sell the Gen 1s?

Correct, gen 1s. Not sure if they still sell them. Owner has had them on the car for some time prior to this. Was tuned by someone else and made no where near with more boost than now according to the owner.
 
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Torgus

Captain
Nov 6, 2016
1,195
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If anyone cares, I contacted Rob about my power goals and he told me to go single turbo vs. hybrid turbos. He literally would not take my money as I would not achieve what I was looking for with his products, which I had a feeling might be the case based on my power goals. This is specifically because of the fuel I have available. I only have access to pump 93 + meth as I have basically no E85 access here in MA. If I had E85 access I would have gone with PI & RB twins and hit my goal whp as I don't want to ever build my motor.

Not everyone wants to make north of 650whp and the hybrid twins certainly have their place in the market. Given the install cost, do yourself a favor and buy the ones that have the lowest failures you hear about. At the end of the day you can only cram so much wheel into the housings etc. So quality is what I would look for from a hybrid twin vendor vs. glory run dyno pulls. Just my 2 cents. Do with that what you will.
 
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