Surge killing turbos

JBacon335

Corporal
Nov 7, 2016
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Toms River, NJ
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07 335i Sedan, 1988 Mustang GT
oh, I've used it and it worked fine but I stopped caring once I got the hydra turbos. now I just have to find the time to actually install them and decide on what outlet setup I want to attempt since the VRSF ones I have are not going to fly. I'll let these stock ones make a bunch of noise for now
 

NoQuarter

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Nov 24, 2017
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I'm gonna go with wastegate rattle as well. At least try to rule it out.

But, as a long shot here check for muffler flap rattle. I know you hear it in the front but it is all connected of course. Just wrap something around the flap actuator to hold everything tight.
 
Oct 24, 2016
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To clarify, wastegate rattle and on-throttle surge are two different things. One isn't a huge deal but can be addressed (wastegate rattle), the other is absolutely a big deal and must be resolved quickly.
 

DCT_JAY

Specialist
Jan 17, 2019
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2011 335is DCT
Why not give wastegate rattle fix in mhd a shot jbacon is usually pretty quiet with opinions so if he says he has same exact sound you can pretty much take it as fact that he is on the money.
This did nothing inched it up and reflashed a shit load of times never changed
 

DCT_JAY

Specialist
Jan 17, 2019
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2011 335is DCT
To clarify, wastegate rattle and on-throttle surge are two different things. One isn't a huge deal but can be addressed (wastegate rattle), the other is absolutely a big deal and must be resolved quickly.
the rattle i could care less about, its the all of a sudden rattle (Which i can agree at some points does sound that way but it sounds like something thats constantly spinning and moving) exhaust with a deeper exhaust note, Runs rich, fuel trims are bias, crackles like crazy on startup ( Which i dont have the burble on ) ive had a retune a couple of times.

This is before the retune (Didnt have Rattle,surge,deep exhaust note, crackles) - https://datazap.me/u/jay335is/2-step-colder-spark-plugs-after-adaptations?log=0&data=3-22

This is after the retune (This is RIGHT after it started having all of those issues did some pulls to log and they look completely diffrent) - https://datazap.me/u/jay335is/v5?log=0&data=3-22

I had a turbo before this that did the same thing and this was fixed after swapping the front turbo out and put a new to me one ( same exhaust manifold ) and ran fine with no surge, issues with boost, anything at all.
 

Rob09msport

Major
Oct 28, 2017
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Monroe CT
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09 335i msport le mans 18 x5
oh, I've used it and it worked fine but I stopped caring once I got the hydra turbos. now I just have to find the time to actually install them and decide on what outlet setup I want to attempt since the VRSF ones I have are not going to fly. I'll let these stock ones make a bunch of noise for now
I think best bet would hit up rb and use his new gf outlets . Making custom sucked so bad and was not worth the headache. Took me forever then I had whistle sound ,i finally got it right .

Where you located cause their are some ways to hack together. Like vrsf rear turbo then vtt silicone merge with 135 degree hard pipe out of front turbo .
 

JBacon335

Corporal
Nov 7, 2016
227
107
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41
Toms River, NJ
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07 335i Sedan, 1988 Mustang GT
I think best bet would hit up rb and use his new gf outlets . Making custom sucked so bad and was not worth the headache. Took me forever then I had whistle sound ,i finally got it right .

Where you located cause their are some ways to hack together. Like vrsf rear turbo then vtt silicone merge with 135 degree hard pipe out of front turbo .
I'm in NJ, I was thinking of even doing the mmp outlets and a set of the turbo blankets to keep them from melting
 

Rob09msport

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Oct 28, 2017
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That's sucks I move to ct and all goes to hell lmao. Last car I had to put down numbers was a cobra . I would love to get back into 10s but even low 11s feels real good .
 
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matreyia

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Apr 19, 2017
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335i e93
It actually does it WOT, like its chugging. In regular driving it also does a 3 stage blow off.

I had chugging too when I followed some suggestions to get a spring that was less hg than recommended... when you press the gas, at certain region, it goes 'chugg chugg chugg' as if it doesn't know what it wants to do..."do i close do I open??? what do I do?"

So, if this is happening to you, then increase the spring and at idle your BOV SHOULD be closed or BARELY OPEN. If it's visibly open over .24 inches... that shit is not going to fly... and also lub your BOV piston with sewing machine lube. After I switched to the recommended spring, all that bullshit went away, never again sounded like it was choking under high input.

I have used 6, 8, 10, and 11 over long test durations and without exception the 10 is best performance and response for my car. Of course my car has textbook vacuum levels and is super healthy in all systems.
 
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Rob09msport

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I had chugging too when I followed some suggestions to get a spring that was less hg than recommended... when you press the gas, at certain region, it goes 'chugg chugg chugg' as if it doesn't know what it wants to do..."do i close do I open??? what do I do?"

So, if this is happening to you, then increase the spring and at idle your BOV SHOULD be closed or BARELY OPEN. If it's visibly open over .24 inches... that shit is not going to fly... and also lub your BOV piston with sewing machine lube. After I switched to the recommended spring, all that bullshit went away, never again sounded like it was choking under high input.

I have used 6, 8, 10, and 11 over long test durations and without exception the 10 is best performance and response for my car. Of course my car has textbook vacuum levels and is super healthy in all systems.
As much as everyone says no I have to agree with matreyia and i really feel that tial cant be that off with their own design. Maybe low vac on old cars could need lighter idk
 

doublespaces

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Oct 18, 2016
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EDIT: Removed some stuff that is irrelevant

First person representations of what the bov is doing backed by only onomatopoeia and the tial "general vacuum" guidline recommendations are not trustworthy enough to overturn physics. Lets please use science derived discussion.

You're making lots of definitive statements based on a 'vague and general' guideline from Tial (which isn't written for minimizing surge on delicate hybrid turbos) and your own results (which are subject to many variables and in my opinion suspect). You have not explained how your car manages to defy the physics of how a BOV operates. If you want to use Tial's recommendations, ask them to see their chart for cars with drive by wire throttle blades.

What you guys are unable to do, is explain how a 10 psi spring is better than a 9 psi spring, in terms of reducing surge. Unless you can do this then you are merely speculating. Using the old "Well I have a friend who has the same setup and he has no problems... so the problem must be you and not me". This is the logic used by people who can't actually explain what the problem is but resort to it anyway because they want it to be true.

I had chugging too when I followed some suggestions to get a spring that was less hg than recommended... when you press the gas, at certain region, it goes 'chugg chugg chugg' as if it doesn't know what it wants to do..."do i close do I open??? what do I do?"

This sounds like open throttle surging. In that case, that is probably the sound of air escaping your intake, not your bov opening. If that is your bov opening while you are accelerating, then you've got something else going on. If this is after you've let off the pedal, this is open throttle turbo flutter. Again, it is coming out of your intake pipe, not your bov unless you've got plumbing issues. That is the sound of the compressor chopping up the air.

Unlike twin turbo guys, big singles have a bit more audible resolution on the spool up, spool down process and I can clearly hear it through my window due to the turbo being on the right and my bov on the left so it is easy to differentiate what is what. Some people can't tell the difference between pressurized air escaping the intake pipe when you lift and the air escaping the bov. The compressor wheel doesn't make a perfect seal with the housing and when lifting off the throttle, pressure can equalize going out of the intake rather than into the engine or out the bov.

I keep saying the same thing because nobody has ever presented any evidence or argument other than 'do I open, do I close?' that is the most scientific explanation for why a stronger spring is better at reducing surge that I've heard anyone tell and that is not convincing. Bov springs don't have their own personality, vacuum pressures influence their operation of the bov plunger. Once someone presents something worth responding to perhaps the debate could go further. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I haven't seen anything from anyone that suggests a heavier spring reduces surge.
 
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matreyia

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Apr 19, 2017
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"What you guys are unable to do, is explain in scientific terms how a 10 psi spring is better than a 9 psi spring, in terms of reducing surge. "

I used all the different springs and the 10 performed the most responsive without any issues. All the other ones had response and stability issues. If your car likes works better on another spring, so be it. For your car that spring works. Or if you like the BOV open more than a little, that's all you.

I followed your suggestion and had a less powerful spring that left my BOV open like a quarter inch or more and it never ran tight/responsive. Everytime I pushed the pedal in the mid range power band it would vacillate between open and close. After replacing with the 10psi one, it never wavers, it just works and doesn't vacillate. When it is open, it stays open without any fluctuation until the pressure/vacuum requires change.

You want evidence? - all the evidence I need is that my car works perfect with a 10 psi spring and doesn't like the lighter ones. You can argue science all you want, it won't change that.

But if you don't have any problems with using a different psi, who am I to argue?
 

doublespaces

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Oct 18, 2016
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I followed your suggestion and had a less powerful spring that left my BOV open like a quarter inch or more and it never ran tight/responsive. Everytime I pushed the pedal in the mid range power band it would vacillate between open and close.

In a properly setup system, the power of the spring has nothing to do with your bov opening due to your midrange boost, even TiAL's own spring chart says this:
1572042623765.png


Boost pressure is applied 'virtually' equally on the top and bottom of the BOV by design. That is what that 1/4" line to the top port is for, to ensure there isn't an imbalance.

If you are getting less pressure on the top port of the BOV, there wouldn't be an equal force and the bov might open up if the pressure in the chargepipe has a delta greater than the spring you are using. A stronger spring would fix this, but again that is only because you've got a hardware issue.

It sounds like you were getting over 6 psi but less than 10 psi more pressure on the bottom of the BOV which overcame the spring causing the issues you're talking about. The solution isn't to get a stronger spring, it would be to fix the boost leak you have on your top port. The spring shouldn't need to scale to your turbo's performance otherwise you'll quickly exceed the vacuum potential of the engine.

But if you don't have any problems with using a different psi, who am I to argue?

I'm not judging you. However you are coming in here and giving bad advice.

You want evidence? - all the evidence I need is that my car works perfect with a 10 psi spring and doesn't like the lighter ones. You can argue science all you want, it won't change that.

That isn't evidence. Also I just laid out the reasoning to your issue above, it is an actual explanation and easier to believe than trying to say the laws of physics don't exist on your car. I suggest you actually check the pressure and you might be surprised to find there is a pressure difference. Try using a mechanical gauge to measure boost on the top bov port and compare to your chargepipe TMAP.

The ability to run a light spring is an indicator of a healthy system with correct plumbing.
 
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matreyia

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In a properly setup system, the power of the spring has nothing to do with your bov opening due to your midrange boost, even TiAL's own spring chart says this:
1572042623765-png.png


Obviously this is not the issue. I don't even think you understand what I am telling you. You just want to keep talking about science and charts and definitions. Which is fine. Obviously science is science and obviously you do not understand that for my car the science points to using a 10psi spring and NOT lighter.

And obviously science points to your car performing better with a different strength spring.

Do you really think that I don't understand TIAL's information? That is irrelevant. What I giving here is FOR MY CAR the lighter springs caused less response and more indecisiveness while the 10 psi spring was perfect. This is not a debate about Science...that part is immutable. This is a report on what my car likes and what the problems were before with different springs.

I don't have the time or desire to measure all the vacuum, pressures, fluids, temps etc... and plug it into some computer to give you a scientific reason why my car likes the 10 psi spring the best...I'm sure that can be done but that won't make it run better with a different spring.

And again, if your car or someone else's car likes a different spring rate, then use that spring rate. But the fluttering issues on my car disappeared when I used a 10 psi spring. What do you want me to do? Keep following your scientific understanding of things that say I should in theory use a spring you suggest and then run my car to the ground? NO thanks. A million bucks says science backs up my car's preference for the 10 psi spring vs. a lighter one. Why? Because for this particular car with its state of health and history the vacuum levels work perfect with the 10 psi spring.

That's all.
 

doublespaces

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Oct 18, 2016
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Do you really think that I don't understand TIAL's information?

Rather, just the general operation of the BOV's top port. Closed throttle fluttering(surging) can be a normal symptom of a BOV, it is an imperfect device and is generally not something to be concerned with. The wastegates aren't driving the turbine and the load exerted on the shaft should be mininal. If you're talking about open throttle flutter, that is a whole different issue.

If you're getting bad responsiveness due to a bov opening up during a pull or closing too late, I can see that happening in the scenario I described above regarding the pressure differential between the top port and the chargepipe.

Because for this particular car with its state of health and history the vacuum levels work perfect with the 10 psi spring.

I agree with this wholeheartedly and believe it.