New HPFP Upgrade - SpoolPerformance Helix

[Traf]

Not wanting to rain on your parade but 700hp on E85 is very unlikely.

 

[martymil]

Hum, it seems i have the same problem, was wondering if it wasnt the pump itself making this noise.
Going to swap the pump soon, i'll know for sure then.

Usually a pump rattling it's the valve going bad and not the actual pump.

To bad you can't just buy a new solenoid valve for the pump

 

[Silentkiller335i]

Hey guys, since this isn't a vendor thread, and we have some knowledge of the product directly from two people testing it. We can speak on it, and hopefully, dispell some of the questions/comparisons to the shotgun.

First off we think this is a great idea, and if well executed 100% has its place in the market. It is a simple device and does exactly what the Shotgun does. Takes a positive displacement pump, and spins it faster thus increasing its pumping capacity.

A few facts that people should know up front based on the information given to us directly from people who have this product. We can say with 110% certainty this does not spin the HPFP as fast as the shotgun on the belt does. Meaning this has less flow potential, again it's a simple matter. Spin a positive displacement pump faster, increase its output, spin it slower decrease its output. Since this spins slower than the shotgun it simply will not flow as much. We rate the Single Barrel at right around 550WHP on 100% E85 (much higher for lower blends), since this option does not flow as much who knows what it will support, but in the 500WHP (100% E85) area would be our guess, depending on the price that may or may not be worth it to some people.

Another thing to consider if 500WHP is not enough for you, there is no way to add another pump in like we do with the double barrel. You put the overdrive on the HPFP, and you get what you get if you want more DI only you are out of luck.

Something else that should be in peoples minds, this uses a planetary gear set up, while that is a well known, and common way to build an overdrive, the gears are expensive if made properly, and if too much RPM is pushed through the gear set you can real-time failures. In the shotgun they only thing you have that is RPM dependant is the bearings which are rated at over 16,000RPM, much higher than they will ever see. Will the gears be able to withstand the RPM, that remains to be seen, but its something to keep a watch on.

I see some people saying they want this because they are not getting enough fuel from a shotgun, this will NOT fix that, I also see someone who placed an order for a DB, saying he may cancel depending on the results here. If you need a DB, we assume you are looking for more than 500WHP on E85, if so this product is going to fall well short of that goal.

In the end this is a great product for people such as E6X platform, XI, and Active steering as the shotgun does not fit, but for people looking to push DI only, its reduced flow capacity due to less RPM, and its inability to be upgraded to a DB style upgrade will hinder those looking for 650+WHP DI only.

Just wanted to step in a vendor, and clear up the questions that seem to be asked before too much misinformation gets thrown around.

As always direct questions, email me [email protected]

Chris

Lol at your post. For one this isn’t your product so you know nothing about it or how well it performs. A lot of wrong information told here, doesn’t surprise me coming from VTT to talk down another vendors product to boost there own.

Anyway I can say that the helix does in fact spin faster then the shotgun, so yes it will flow more then the shotgun thus making more power.

The helix is way over designed,
we won’t have a problem with failures unlike the shotgun. I’ve beat the living hell out of the helix since the first prototype design was made, shifting at 8100rpm

But anyway everyone just be patient with info on this product don’t believe another vendors info , especially a competitor. Lots of rumors and wrong information being spread around. If you don’t here it from SPOOL directly don’t believe it.

 

[veer90]

LOL did VTT really try and claim 4x overdrive is not as fast as the shotgun?

Shotgun looks to be a 2x overdrive, if that. Anyone with a shotgun and N54 on hand can take 5 minutes to measure then divide crank pulley diameter by shotgun pulley diameter to get the overdrive ratio. It's simple math.

Edit: see post #124 https://www.spoolstreet.com/boards/...spoolperformance-helix.5177/page-7#post-73941

 

[JimboFresh206]

Lol this is rad!

 

[martymil]

Now who is spreading misinformation

What shotgun failures, maybe in the past when they were welded and that was addressed with the billet drive since then I haven't seen any problems on all the ones I've installed.

The problem is not the overdrive but the pump itself being over driven that much.

VTT coped a lot of flack for even overdriving it 1.5x or 2x but overdriving it 4x the normal speed ?

With the pumps now costing in the 4 digit vicinity I'm not sure I would be comfortable spinning the hpfp that fast but hell if they survive those speeds I know the shotgun won't be an issue after all and that myth can be put to bed.

There is also the issue of the restricted inlet in the pump, you can spin it as fast as you like but the inlet flow can't keep up to the output and that's another issue

There are more issues with the pump itself than the over drive kit, you could easily change the pulley on the shot gun and drive it faster but I wonder if they know something already about it and that's why it was limited. Hmm

 

[The Convert]

Now who is spreading misinformation

What shotgun failures, maybe in the past when they were welded and that was addressed with the billet drive since then I haven't seen any problems on all the ones I've installed.

The problem is not the overdrive but the pump itself being over driven that much.

VTT coped a lot of flack for even overdriving it 1.5x or 2x but overdriving it 4x the normal speed ?

With the pumps now costing in the 4 digit vicinity I'm not sure I would be comfortable spinning the hpfp that fast but hell if they survive those speeds I know the shotgun won't be an issue after all and that myth can be put to bed.

There is also the issue of the restricted inlet in the pump, you can spin it as fast as you like but the inlet flow can't keep up to the output and that's another issue

There are more issues with the pump itself than the over drive kit, you could easily change the pulley on the shot gun and drive it faster but I wonder if they know something already about it and that's why it was limited. Hmm

All speculation and just because you haven’t seen the alleged issue on the ones you’ve sold, doesn’t mean anything about the total population of kits sold.

 

[martymil]

Out of the hundreds of kits sold by VTT, a hand full possibly came back as bad but most likely could have been installed incorrectly by an unqualified enthusiast.

Just because some can swing a spanner doesn't qualify them that they know what they are doing.

Try carrying out repairs on your BMW and see if BMW parts will cover your warranty if not installed by a qualified mechanic.

But also some mechanics shouldn't be ones either.

 

[veer90]

VTT coped a lot of flack for even overdriving it 1.5x or 2x but overdriving it 4x the normal speed ?

Pump reliability when overdriven is another issue altogether. I'm just pointing out that the claim that shotgun is a faster overdrive when we know the Helix is 4x is questionable

Also I know people who went and got the proper length belt so the oem one isn't being stretched by the shotgun pulley, only to have the bracket break anyway. These are same people who've done motor swaps, turbo installs, large maintenance items, etc without issue. Yes installer fault exists but I don't think it's the case with shotguns.

 

[Torgus]

Out of the hundreds of kits sold by VTT, a hand full possibly came back as bad

Did VTT share their failure data with you on this product as well as the total units shipped etc? It sounds like you are just assuming/speculating.

I know you and VTT are tight and you have a very close business relationship together so I understand you wanting to defend your business partner as it is in your best interest and it puts $$$ in your pocket. If you've followed VTT on this platform you know Tony has been known from day one to not release the product perfect the 1st time in almost every case see: stage 3 turbos, original stage 2s, the GC 1 Zage debacle, Gen 2 cast with the new issue with the wheels destroying themselves and having to change the specific metal they are using, the fake HPFP fix which was just drilling out the rail and removing the filter, this bracket having to be redesigned more than once, etc.

IIRC they now offer a billet mount SPECIFICALLY because there were too many problems with the welded version. You know the billet mount costs significantly more, they did not go to this to save costs but to increase reliability which they had to because of the failures. They fixed the problem which is great! But obvious not enough R&D or testing was done before the product was released. I think eventually VTT fixes most of their products or at least try to as they don't want failed products and an even worse rep than they currently have. But being a gen 1 adopter is a big risk with VTT and this is yet again another perfect example.

At least they still aren't refusing to give refunds for group buys when the product is 6 months late

Try carrying out repairs on your BMW and see if BMW parts will cover your warranty if not installed by a qualified mechanic.

Uhh...BMW covers the warranty on the part if I install it in my driveway according to their website: https://www.bmw.ca/en/topics/owners/parts_service_warranty/original-bmw-parts.html

"Original BMW Part purchased from a BMW Retailer comes with a 2 year, unlimited mileage, warranty that provides coverage against defects in materials and workmanship. For parts installed by a BMW Retailer, the limited warranty shall cover any labor, including diagnosis. Parts installed by third parties, are still entitled to receive the limited warranty coverage, excluding labor and diagnosis. "

I am the 3rd party working in my garage I get the 2 year warranty.

I can buy OEM BMW parts with a lifetime warranty from FCPeuro 1 state away. LIFETIME when installed by a shade tree mechanic: https://www.fcpeuro.com/page/lifetime-guarantee I only buy from FCP as a lifetime warranty is the shit. I can return my oil and filter and get a full refund. Free oil changes for life.

With the amount BMW charges for parts I bet they don't give a flying fuck because their margin is so damn high. Example: My NOX sensor costs $650 from bmw, it is the same as a continental NOX for $120. They make bank on parts.

 

[martymil]

I'll be the first to say and did in my review the kit is not as easy to install as it looks, you really have to know what your doing.

I've installed numerous kits with the belt supplied with the kit without issues, not saying there weren't issues but that just comes from
experience and knowing to what to look for to see if everything fits correctly prior to running it, there is not one manufacturer that hasn't
had an issue with any of their products but its up to the individual to make sure its fitted correctly and if it doesn't look right take a pic
and ask the question.

 

[veer90]

So I took a closer look at the oem gear drive.

The oem configuration is a 61.1% underdrive for the vacuum pump and hpfp off the crank. I measured the gears with image analysis software passing the ruler through center of each gear perfectly horizontal for a true diameter comparison accounting for camera angle etc.

So if we do the math, single shotgun kit returns pump to oem crankshaft speed then overdrives it 168.8%. This result is from the pulley measurements I obtained, 130mm crank pulley divided by 77mm shotgun pulley.

Divide 1.688 / 0.611 for 2.760 which means single shotgun effective overdrive ratio is 2.76 : 1

Helix at 4.x : 1 is still faster. the 61.1% underdrive part doesn't apply to Helix calculations as it's driven off the oem sprocket not the crank.

Edit: see post #124 https://www.spoolstreet.com/boards/...spoolperformance-helix.5177/page-7#post-73941

 

[martymil]

I did say since the billet drive I haven't seen any issues but I also have a welded one that hasn't failed either.

If the part fails due to defect or workmanship yes, here in oz any parts installed by a qualified mechanic has two year warranty any other way 1 year upon inspection of the failure.

I'm not saying vtt is perfect but lets stick to the topic of the current kit on offer

 

[martymil]

So I took a closer look at the oem gear drive.

The oem configuration is a 61.1% underdrive for the vacuum pump and hpfp off the crank. I measured the gears with image analysis software passing the ruler through center of each gear perfectly horizontal for a true diameter comparison accounting for camera angle etc.

So if we do the math, single shotgun kit returns pump to oem crankshaft speed then overdrives it 168.8%. This result is from the pulley measurements I obtained, 130mm crank pulley divided by 77mm shotgun pulley.

Divide 1.688 / 0.611 for 2.760 which means single shotgun effective overdrive ratio is 2.76 : 1

Helix at 4.x : 1 is still faster. the 61.1% underdrive part doesn't apply to Helix calculations as it's driven off the oem sprocket not the crank.

I'm going to watch this very closely to see how the hpfp's cope with those speeds

 

[martymil]

At the end of the day I would rather have the pump on the belt that the chain whilst overdriven, if something was to go wrong with it and it locked up due to failure could you imagine the damage that would cause. Lets hope the kit is fully tested and has some serious miles on it before they release it.

 

[veer90]

At the end of the day I would rather have the pump on the belt that the chain whilst overdriven, if something was to go wrong with it and it locked up due to failure could you imagine the damage that would cause. Lets hope the kit is fully tested and has some serious miles on it before they release it.

I propose an easy way to test this concern... throw helix on an N54, throw car on dyno, set limiter to 8,000 and sit there till something blows up.

 

[martymil]

Did VTT share their failure data with you on this product as well as the total units shipped etc? It sounds like you are just assuming/speculating.

I know you and VTT are tight and you have a very close business relationship together so I understand you wanting to defend your business partner as it is in your best interest and it puts $$$ in your pocket. If you've followed VTT on this platform you know Tony has been known from day one to not release the product perfect the 1st time in almost every case see: stage 3 turbos, original stage 2s, the GC 1 Zage debacle, Gen 2 cast with the new issue with the wheels destroying themselves and having to change the specific metal they are using, the fake HPFP fix which was just drilling out the rail and removing the filter, this bracket having to be redesigned more than once, etc.

IIRC they now offer a billet mount SPECIFICALLY because there were too many problems with the welded version. You know the billet mount costs significantly more, they did not go to this to save costs but to increase reliability which they had to because of the failures. They fixed the problem which is great! But obvious not enough R&D or testing was done before the product was released. I think eventually VTT fixes most of their products or at least try to as they don't want failed products and an even worse rep than they currently have. But being a gen 1 adopter is a big risk with VTT and this is yet again another perfect example.

At least they still aren't refusing to give refunds for group buys when the product is 6 months late




Uhh...BMW covers the warranty on the part if I install it in my driveway according to their website: https://www.bmw.ca/en/topics/owners/parts_service_warranty/original-bmw-parts.html

"Original BMW Part purchased from a BMW Retailer comes with a 2 year, unlimited mileage, warranty that provides coverage against defects in materials and workmanship. For parts installed by a BMW Retailer, the limited warranty shall cover any labor, including diagnosis. Parts installed by third parties, are still entitled to receive the limited warranty coverage, excluding labor and diagnosis. "

I am the 3rd party working in my garage I get the 2 year warranty.

I can buy OEM BMW parts with a lifetime warranty from FCPeuro 1 state away. LIFETIME when installed by a shade tree mechanic: https://www.fcpeuro.com/page/lifetime-guarantee I only buy from FCP as a lifetime warranty is the shit. I can return my oil and filter and get a full refund. Free oil changes for life.

With the amount BMW charges for parts I bet they don't give a flying fuck because their margin is so damn high. Example: My NOX sensor costs $650 from bmw, it is the same as a continental NOX for $120. They make bank on parts.

That is not true, here we go with the wild speculations about any my dealings with VTT as I openly criticized the shot gun kit in my review and said what I didn't like.

The overdrive billet drive kit has been flawless when installed properly and I'm reporting out of the many kits I've installed I haven't seen a failure yet.

I will defend any vendor or manufacturer if I see misinformation because there is two sides to every story.

There is no need for tin foil hats here.

 

[9krpmrx8]

If it sucks it sucks. The market will sort that out. I just wish I could read a post about a new product without VTT shit posting in it. But it least it's not Tony so it's shitposting in a nice way.

 

[SJ_1989]

At the end of the day I would rather have the pump on the belt that the chain whilst overdriven, if something was to go wrong with it and it locked up due to failure could you imagine the damage that would cause. Lets hope the kit is fully tested and has some serious miles on it before they release it.

Valid concern. For pumps, there are generally two areas of concern regarding overspeed that OEM's and pump suppliers are worried about when analyzing whether or not a pump will survive for X amount of time, both have been discussed here.

1. Pump inlet conditions. Higher speeds and displacements (i.e. flow rate) require better inlet conditions to avoid cavitation.
2. Internal temperature. Pump efficiency depends on 4 things....speed, pressure, displacement, and temperature. The pump will reach a point where the total efficiency starts to drop off at higher speeds. This leads to higher internal temperatures that effect the fluid viscosity. If the viscosity becomes too low cooling and lubrication performance is reduced and can cause thermal expansion. Given that parts within the pump are made up of different materials, have different thermal masses, etc., they expand at different rates and can seize.

I hope Spool has thought about this and has tested in this manner to prevent an issue. @Silentkiller335i 's experience has been positive thusfar. There's a risk to every performance modification though. Personally, I can live with that risk since my car lives its life a quarter mile at a time now bcracecar lol.

I propose an easy way to test this concern... throw helix on an N54, throw car on dyno, set limiter to 8,000 and sit there till something blows up.

The engineer in me wants to send this out to a third party and place on a bench dyno for endurance testing and see when it grenades.....but that's $$$$$. That's when the real fun begins

 

[Hydra Performance]

^Excellent post above, thank you!