Upgrade paths for front swivel and wheel bearings (E9x, E8x)

Asbjorn

Lieutenant
Mar 10, 2018
785
European, based in China
So this topic is related to items number 3 and 4 below, with the goal of upgrading from non-M 1/3/Z series

E9xM.jpg


Afaik there are two options from BMW:
A) The M components from the E-series 1 and 3-series
B) The M components from the new 2/3/4-series (as demonstrated by @Hydra Performance )

Here's the data I have been able to find:

MaterialWeightClamp connectionKinematicsWheel type
StockCommon across Z4, 1, 3 series.Unknown52 mm parallel fitMade to work with soft bushings and non-M arms on street. Unknown if the adjusted toe curves etc resulting from running stiffer bushings is an actual advantage or not on track5 x 120 72.56
Option A (old M)Aluminum cast alloy, E60 M5 wheel bearingSwivel bearing is 500g lighter than stock. Wheel bearing weight unknown.Clamp height 76 mm with parallel upper and conical lower fit.

mvsnonm2.jpg
Made to work with M bushings and arms on street.Same
Option B (new M)Lightweight aluminum, new gen wheel bearing.Unknown for swivel bearing, but wheel bearing is 1.1kg/2.5lbs lighter than A (probably per set)Similar to A, unknown dimensions.Apparently good enough for M4 GT4 which uses motorsport all bearing suspension arms.Same

Main questions I have:
  1. Do front dampers that fit the clamp connection of the 1 and 3-series M swivel bearings also fit the new M swivel bearings? Ie would a 1-series M front strut fit the M4 swivel bearing and would the ride height be significantly different?
  2. When installing big brake kits, besides the issue with the dimples, is the brake rotor hub and caliper mounting bracket the same dimensions for both stock, A and B? I guess any BKK supplier would know this. If the dimensions are the same, I guess it would be easy enough to make holes for the dimples or remove them.
  3. Has it been confirmed whether the wheel speed sensor from the E-series installs without problem on both A and B? Maybe @Hydra Performance has tested this by now?

My Z4 currently runs M arms with a spherical bearing kit. Lighter and stronger front swivel bearings and wheel hubs would be nice to have. Also my left swivel bearing is ever so slightly bent, which means it has around 0.2-3deg of camber less than the right side. The negative of upgrading would be the lack of OTS dampers and coil-over kits (which is already super limited), but then on the other hand, it might be fun to try M dampers at some point.
 

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Jan 31, 2017
339
@Asbjorn,
I have both available with wheel bearings should you need them They are more or less similar, with the following differences:
The F8x uprights run approx 4mm higher ride height, than the E9x M uprights all else being equal.
The E9xM uprights use a different caliper bolt spacing than the F8x , F8x also happens to use the same as non-M 122mm caliper-bolt spacing as our cars.

F8x uprights will work with E9x non-M wheel bearings, and have zero issues with ABS (on my car at least)
 
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Asbjorn

Lieutenant
Mar 10, 2018
785
European, based in China
@Asbjorn,
I have both available with wheel bearings should you need them They are more or less similar, with the following differences:
The F8x uprights run approx 4mm higher ride height, than the E9x M uprights all else being equal.
The E9xM uprights use a different caliper bolt spacing than the F8x , F8x also happens to use the same as non-M 122mm caliper-bolt spacing as our cars.

F8x uprights will work with E9x non-M wheel bearings, and have zero issues with ABS (on my car at least)
Super informative!

So just to confirm, are these statements true?
  1. F8x M wheel bearings won't work with the E-series wheel speed sensor.
  2. If non-M E-series wheel bearings are used with F8x M uprights (swivel bearings) then basically any non-M E-series BBK will fit directly.
  3. If E-series M wheel bearings are used with the F-series M uprights, you would need to deal with the dimples only. Everything else lines up (or can be made to do so with a spacer or two on the caliper mount).
  4. non-M E-series BBK just wont fit E9x M. You would need M type caliper bracket from the BBK kit supplier, and then there's the dimples as well, so might as well order new hats also...
  5. You can basically use any M strut/aftermarket coilover, both E and F-series with any of the M uprights.
 
Jan 31, 2017
339
@Asbjorn
1) That is not a given, it might work as-is, and it might also work with the sensor rotated 90deg
2) It will work with an 11mm washer/spacer made up (if my memory serves me correctly)
3) Sounds about right
4) Yeah different caliper spacing there, the dimples are easy you just drill out suitable holes on the hats, not rocket science.
5) Correct, and if you happen to have non-M size coilovers, you can always sleeve them to size.

If you're on the market for the best setup money can buy, I couldn't recommend Intrax highly enough. Truly a magic-carpet ride. I was able to smash kerbs with aplomb on my last track outing, so much that it actually a) tore my exhaust apart, b) snapped an OEM control arm bolt in 2 , and c) turned all 4 ends of my (stock) driveshafts to mush! Still repairing/upgrading the damage haha. PM me if you want a quote...
 
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ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,079
Charleston, SC
Good thread to start. I got a set of the F8x uprights from Omar a few weeks back, waiting for my front M Ohlins to come in and will install with nonM hub/bearings and speed sensors swapped over.

We'll see how it all works.
 

Bnks334

Sergeant
Dec 1, 2016
486
New York
Just went through all this myself lol. E92 M3 spindles are the oddball out when it comes to caliper fitment. Need to machine custom brackets to fit anything other than E92 M3 calipers onto them.

I didn't even think of using the F80 M3 spindles. As per above, I could've bolted on my stock e82 calipers and ran my stock 135i rotors. No added expenses in that regard.

With F80 M3 spindles on an E8x/E9x, would you need to run the F80 control arms? That would be an added cost vs retaining the E92 M3 arms I already have in place. I know the F series arms are different and as I've discussed with Hydra he mentioned the sub-frame pickup points are different. With all that not being nailed down I decided to just sell my 135i calipers to fund buying E92 M3 brakes and rotors. Stick with all E92 M3 stuff as the subframe is shared with the 135i/1M. Hoping the brakes don't feel too bad or might have to swap in the M3 master cylinder. No weight savings from this setup, but, super light unsprung mass is not always necessarily "better." Rotational weight like rotors? sure, lighter has benefits.
 
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ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,079
Charleston, SC
@Bnks334

There's a thread on 1addicts in an international subgroup where some folks tried to fit the E82 Brembos on E82 rotors with the F8x knuckle and ended up needing spacers for the caliper backspacing to line up with the rotor face properly. I remember 8mm. So I grabbed a set of brackets from Omar and ordered a set of the ECS 2pc E46CSL rotors and will run the stock brembos.

Also, per my convos with Omar the arms and steering rod ends bolt up fine.

As soon as I get my dampers in I'll try to bolt it all up one night.

Just have to get the 10mm caliper hex bolt figured out.
 
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ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,079
Charleston, SC
Am I missing why this is worth the hassle/work?
For me I wanted to run an inverted strut up front. Also wanted the independent ride height adjustability on an Ohlins damper (read: Barry) and decreased bump steer and positive camber gain offered by the M spindles. Either of the E9xM3 or F8x uprights will do this.
 
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Jan 31, 2017
339
The more rigid strut mounting on the M uprights is another big plus as well, less dynamic camber loss due to deflection + less internal friction in the strut itself.I'm smack dab in the middle of designing a similar solution for the E46 for this very same reason as I'm bending struts far too easily on my DD 316ti...
 
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Bnks334

Sergeant
Dec 1, 2016
486
New York
@Bnks334

There's a thread on 1addicts in an international subgroup where some folks tried to fit the E82 Brembos on E82 rotors with the F8x knuckle and ended up needing spacers for the caliper backspacing to line up with the rotor face properly. I remember 8mm. So I grabbed a set of brackets from Omar and ordered a set of the ECS 2pc E46CSL rotors and will run the stock brembos.

Also, per my convos with Omar the arms and steering rod ends bolt up fine.

As soon as I get my dampers in I'll try to bolt it all up one night.

Just have to get the 10mm caliper hex bolt figured out.
Pretty sure I read that at some point too. Hard to keep all this stuff straight lol. At this point I am converted to e92 m3 front end. Just waiting on struts to come back from being revalved. Got the sleeves ready to go to convert to m3 front and rear mounting. I'll deal with the ugly front calipers. This just seemed easier than more Frankenstein parts.
 
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Asbjorn

Lieutenant
Mar 10, 2018
785
European, based in China
Front Swivel bearings / uprights / spindelsStrutsBrakesSuspension arms and steering rodWheel bearingSpeed sensorSensor functionality
non-M (1/3/Z4 E-series)Only nonM parallel typeCompatible with B as long as you stick with nonM wheel bearingsAny, except tie rodsAny (but see brakes)Anyunclear...
M sensor might be needed in case of M DCT swap
A (old M)Same as B. Can be made to work with nonM using a sleeveIt's complicated...Any, but need M tie todsEhm... see brakesAnyalso unknown for non-standard combinations
B (new M)Same as ACompatible with nonM, up-to 8mm spacer needed if nonM bearing is used. No spacer needed for B type wheel bearings, but then theres dimples...Any, but need M tie rodsAny (but see brakes)AnyABS OK if nonM sensor is matched with nonM wheel bearing.
Unclear for other combinations...

My summary of what I believe we know thanks to you guys. @Hydra Performance do let me know if I misunderstood some of what you wrote.

@[email protected] was mentioned as well - let us know if anything to add.

For me I wanted to run an inverted strut up front. Also wanted the independent ride height adjustability on an Ohlins damper (read: Barry) and decreased bump steer and positive camber gain offered by the M spindles. Either of the E9xM3 or F8x uprights will do this.
What was the reason you didn't go for the F8x wheel bearings as well? Because it is unknown if the sensor works, or because they are just super expensive for what you get?
 
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Asbjorn

Lieutenant
Mar 10, 2018
785
European, based in China
Pretty sure I read that at some point too. Hard to keep all this stuff straight lol. At this point I am converted to e92 m3 front end. Just waiting on struts to come back from being revalved. Got the sleeves ready to go to convert to m3 front and rear mounting. I'll deal with the ugly front calipers. This just seemed easier than more Frankenstein parts.
Any pictures of the sleeves?
 
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